floyd rose question?

I have a side project helping a friend rehabilitate his mid eighties shredder.

This guitar is one of those low end clones with a licensed Floyd Rose tremolo that never played well... but it's my friend's so I want to treat it with respect.

Luckily he has upgraded and has 2 nice and fully playable guitars these days... so we can be honest about this one.

Here's the deal... I've never worked with a floyd system and I have a basic question.

The two trem pivot bolts are fastened to bushings that have been press fit into the guitar.

The bushing are loose and on the bridge is "floating" up when I place the tension springs in the back cavity.

It's very difficult to pull the bushings out by hand... (attempted by pulling on the screw that fits in the bushing) but the leverage of the tremolo seems to pull the bushings right up with ease.

Honestly I'm at the point where I want to rout the guitar and place fresh wood in the floyd "hole" to prepare the guitar for a reliable bridge... but the best part about this guitar is the paint job :-(.

I thought I'd ask to confirm that the bushings are intended to be tight and stable... does anyone have any thoughts on this?

I'm considering gluing the bushings but I don't have much faith that it will be a reliable connection.

Any ideas?

thanks,
mike

Mike I've replaced bushings in a Strat and pretty sure they're basically the same.

Yes they are press fit so they will be tight. You do need to get them tight.
I would not want to drill, plug, re-drill either. What I would try first and will most likely work is;
Pry the bushings out. Staight out. Then I would try JB weld or something similiar to fill in the slack.
Tape the surface of guitar, remove tape from holes, coat lightly cavity walls, lightly coat bushings, inset pivot bolts to assure the bushings are set right. Insert and let set-up.

Michael

I always find bad spelling after posting

Mike those bushings are basically tapped "plugs".
When you get them out you will see the ridges meant to keep them from spinning and to help set.

I had to relocate them on my Strat. I drilled for the new bushings and plugged the original holes.
You can look up tremelos and see a picture of them if it would make you feel a little better about doing it.

Also...if this was a fresh hole one would want a soft mallet to drive the bushing in. If hole is drilled straight bushing will be right.

So just trying to pull the bushings straight upwards is difficult but they seem to want to pull up and out when the trem is installed (with no strings attached)? That's odd.

Well, here's the problem as I see it: those pivot points are your only point of contact with the body of the guitar (other than the springs in the cavity which are only there to provide reverse tension). If they are not solid or tight, then you might actually loose some sustain. Gluing them in to make them tight doesn't sound unreasonable until the next person has to deal with the problem (assuming there will ever be a "next person").

I think at some point, the question comes up - how much is this guitar worth to your friend. Remounting those bushings is a chore. Especially if it involves some woodworking.

Bottom line - tight is good. Whatever it takes to make them tight is the right way to go including glue. There may be another option that invlves replacing the bushings with larger bushings so they grip the wood better. Check with Stewart-McDonald and see if they offer a solution. Good luck! Perhaps someone else has a better idead.

Oh - another question - is the trem floating? I mean, are the tension springs in the cavity set so that trem floats above the body of the guitar or are they set so that the rear of the trem is forced down onto the body of the guitar? Some players prefer to lock the trem down so it doesn't actually float. It rests on the body of the guitar. This method offers two advantages - there is typically more sustain and when you bend a note, the other strings don't go out of tune as badly. With a floating trem, when you bend one string, the others go flat.

ORIGINAL: spacey

You can see the bushings here

Oversized may require drilling...I'd plug the hole and re-drill stock size before I'd enlarge. Bushings are somewhat hard to get anyway.

Well, either method requires drilling (although a slightly oversize bushing might not). Plugging the existing holes and redrilling brand new holes is risky because those holes have to be pretty straight. These are knife-edge bearings we're talking about. Those Gibson style bridges are less forgiving but even they have to be pretty straight. You almost need a drill press for that type of work. I wouldn't want to attempt that with a hand drill.

Plug the hole and redrill, Mike. It's the easiest (and best in the long run) way to go. I've had to do that with a couple of my Schaller/Schaller spinoff FRs.

An original Floyd Rose doesn't use bushings- it's just two pivot screws going straight into the wood. However, because of the bridge design, the knife edges go south after a while, and they can't be replaced. The advantage of the Schaller type design with the bushings is that the knife edges can be replaced. A Schaller also sounds warmer than an OFR, due to it not having a die cast base like an OFR does.

ew

Ah... they include bushings now! The OFRs I put on my guitars myself didn't have that option- but it's been over twenty years since I did an OFR install on one of my guitars...

ew

Maybe it's just the way the statements are being phrased that is confusing me. If I understood the original comment/question - the bushings were being "pulled out" when the trem was installed (with no strings attached yet). The lateral pressure from the trem was causing the bushings to pull away from the wood. Usually, if you install a floating trem with no strings installed yet, the trem will naturally want to pull back against the body of the guitar. Any trem would do that. The tension of the springs will cause that to happen. If the trem cavity is such that the trem is allowed to be pulled backwards and well as forwards, I can sort of see how this is possible. If there's no cavity behind the tail of the trem, I don't know.

I understand how this might create an upward pressure on the pivot screws but enough pressure to pull the bushings out of the body of the guitar? If this is the issue - then there is probably something wrong with the wood around the bushings. I've seen cases where users will periodically oil those pivot points and the oil will eventually soak into the wood and basically rot the wood. Or perhaps, some heavy handed trem action will eventually just wear them out.

It may be that the other guys are right - plug and redrill. That may ultimately be the best long-term solution. Again I state though, the position of those holes had better be spot on.

Stewart McDonald might make a sort of jig for this type of work - one that allows you to use a hand drill and keep the drill bit straight. You don't want the drill bit to go in sideways or drift as you go down. Good luck!

Mike, if you're having trouble getting the bushings out, have you tried putting your feet (socks, no shoes) against the face of the guitar while you pull straight up on the stud with the pliers? I've been able to do that on several guitars where more conventional methods failed to budge the things.

<Edited for incoherent typos.>

just some clarification (as the FR has had a lot of stigma and mis-info since the beginning):

Schaller FR is OFR. They took the contract after about 100 were made in Japan for the 1st run kramer beak headstock guitars to replace the satndard and flicker trems. Before that Floyd hand tooled around a gross true Original Fr's- those you can see the tooling marks under the plating and the fine tuner rack is 45% straight up off the base plate instead of the final design 90% tilt.

A vintage schaller labeled FR is the same as the FR labeled OFR of the same era. Most of the early schaller branded ones have a less gleaming chrome plating on the base plate yet they are one and the same.

If you "relocate" your post hole positions you #1 can't get far enough away from the original holes to make it worth it anyway and #2 you will never be able to intonate the guitar.

On new guitar build and vintage FR restorations I always epoxy the studs in.

When one of that posts tilts (fairly common on the lower post and with the original screw posts without bushings) a dowel and redrill is required. Can do the same thing with this issue except it doesn't sound like you are getting any rocking of the post.

Your condition is not often seen and the bushings should not pull up like that.. I would just epoxy them down for starters.

just my .08 cents.

ORIGINAL: RockStringBender

just some clarification (as the FR has had a lot of stigma and mis-info since the beginning):

Schaller FR is OFR. They took the contract after about 100 were made in Japan for the 1st run kramer beak headstock guitars to replace the satndard and flicker trems. Before that Floyd hand tooled around a gross true Original Fr's- those you can see the tooling marks under the plating and the fine tuner rack is 45% straight up off the base plate instead of the final design 90% tilt.

While it's true that Schaller makes the OFR these days, there is a difference between the Schaller labeled FRs and the OFR. The Schaller uses a die cast base and hardened steel inserts for the fulcrum points. The OFR uses hardened steel throughout, and isn't die cast. An OFR will sound brighter than a Schaller branded FR.

A vintage schaller labeled FR is the same as the FR labeled OFR of the same era. Most of the early schaller branded ones have a less gleaming chrome plating on the base plate yet they are one and the same.

See above...

ew