Liquid Mix and Sonar problems

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jonnycakes15
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2008/10/22 16:44:45 (permalink)

Liquid Mix and Sonar problems

Hello, everyone.
I have been using the Liquid Mix with Sonar PE 6,7, and 8. Now, a while ago I know there were issues with the LM drivers preventing a Sonar project from opening with the saved plugin instances (basically freezing the app and other problems). Well, supposedly this problem was fixed with driver version 2.2.1, I believe, but I, until this very day, still cannot get the LM and Sonar to play nicely. I am still having all of those problems that were supposed to be fixed. I have been talking to Focusrite for months and months and we have tried everything under the sun to remedy this situation. I can't figure anything out, they can't figure anything out. And yes, I have tried the Win SP2 FireWire 400 hotfix, and now I have SP3 anyway. Do any of you fellow Sonar users who are using a LM have any suggestions? Are any of you still having these problems yourselves? It just gets very annoying having to delete all the LM plugs at the end of a session and then having to reload everyone everytime I start a session. PLEASE HELP!!
#1

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    jcsveth
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    RE: Liquid Mix and Sonar problems 2008/10/22 17:19:41 (permalink)
    Now I have a funny story about that (which might help you). We bought a LiquidMix 16 to use in our second studio so that we could share most projects with our main studio which has an expanded LiquidMix32. Well, latest drivers and all that... MAJOR problems. So much that the LiquidMix16 would lock up and the driver would have to be re-loaded just to get it recognized. Says I, 'hmmmm.... but the old one's been working great - let's do some testing'. It is then that I found out (and remembered) that we dropped the driver rev. on the old one back to ver. 2.0rc1. This is great except that it was before the LiquidMix16 came out and that unit is not recognized.

    So... it looks like I'll be talking to Focusrite soon also to get my expensive paperweight working - but you might want to try the old driver (located on their site) to see if that works for you. I even think that I read about the recommendation on this forum!!

    FWIW - this happened in Sonar 7 and 8, Windows XP SP2 and SP3, all manner of firewire ports, cables, and configurations and across three different motherboards.
    #2
    jcsveth
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    RE: Liquid Mix and Sonar problems 2008/10/22 17:22:48 (permalink)
    One other thing - I believe I had to search out and erase ALL files that had to do with the LiquidMix which did not get uninstalled with their uninstaller when reverting revisions backwards. There were some files in the user documents area of XP which had to be searched for and erased.
    Hope this helps.
    #3
    bunnyfluffer
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    RE: Liquid Mix and Sonar problems 2008/10/22 19:34:12 (permalink)
    http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=997083&mpage=6&key=

    IT'S WORKING!!!
    A VERY SPECIAL THANKS TO GORDON,
    with an awesome team effort from Tom & Fred at PCAL and Andy at FOCUSRITE!

    I learned a lot as I'm not a PC guy, I just play one with Sonar ;-)

    I migrated from MAC/LOGIC a year ago so many of the ins/outs tips/tricks with Windows still elude me...

    All of this information helped. It appears to be working and stable
    (fingers crossed).

    Ultimately here's what seemed to have worked - should it be helpful to anyone else.
    Sonar 6.2.1 / Liquid Mix 2.0rc / XP

    1) Uninstalled Liquid Mix

    2) Search Files/Folders and removed everything that said "Liquid Mix"

    3) Search Files/Folders and removed everything that said "Focusrite"

    4) Physically found and deleted the Emulations folder (which was not found
    in the searches)
    C:\Documents and Settings\All Users\Application Data\LiquidMix

    5) Downloaded Liquid Mix Software
    LiquidMixWebSetup-2.0rc1.zip

    6) Downloaded The 44 / 48 Emulations

    7) Installed LiquidMixWebSetup-2.0rc1.zip

    8) Rebooted Machine

    9) Manually installed the Emulations
    C:\Documents and Settings\All Users\Application Data\LiquidMix

    10) Rebooted

    11) Opened a new project, added a stereo instance, saved and reopened
    project. IT WORKED!

    12) Rebooted Machine

    13) Opened my "trouble" project... NO PROBLEM!!!

    AMEN.

    I think what made the difference was:
    DELETING EVERYTHING FROM ALL PREVIOUS INSTALLS INCLUDING THE EMULATIONS

    It's possible I could repeat the steps above, again and try 2.2.1 - but
    it's working... so I'm going to leave it alone.

    The difference between my last attempt at 2.2.1 and 2.0rc was manually
    deleting the emulation folder at
    C:\Documents and Settings\All Users\Application Data\LiquidMix

    and then reinstalling the emulations manually after running the installer.

    THANKS AGAIN TO ALL.

    I hope I am not speaking too soon!

    -tbf

    _____________________________

    "everything digital is a lie" - psychobillybob

    http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=997083&mpage=6&key=
    #4
    Ham N Egz
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    RE: Liquid Mix and Sonar problems 2008/10/22 20:13:30 (permalink)
    just to add to what the bunnyfluffer was saying , while I was trying different versions , along with my bud Gordon from accross the pond , I found that if you tried to overlay a downgrade of the driver S/W it would add the DLL drivers ALONG with the most current version you had previously installed, this would create confusion with the LM control panel and Sonars plug-in manager...so had to manually remove the Dlls.. now I did not remove the emualtions...BUt that is not to say you should not and start from a clean slate
    BTW I am runnig a LM 32 with V 2.2 build 36, IF you feel brave ther is a "secret" Beta Section you can access for drivers and such...I do remember I went through some hoops to stop the LM from crashing my SP7,, but it seems to work dandy in SP8 after I found a driver that works....

    Green Acres is the place to be
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    #5
    gordonrussell76
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    RE: Liquid Mix and Sonar problems 2008/10/23 06:45:56 (permalink)
    To the OP

    Yes make sure you have the 2.0rc release version, Focusrite was working very closely with the forum to get that release to work with SOnar, as there were a lot of Sonar users for LM. Later version they understandably concntrated on fixing all the issues with ProTools and LM, and in my opinion they broke the drivers for Sonar in the process. Hence the older 2.0rc version is the most stable for Sonar users. Untill one of us bugs focusrite and explains the situation.

    Also you say you have installed the firewire patch, that is not enough, you still need to go and manually change your SidSpeed (soemtimes even add it in the first place) in the registry, all teh patch does is enable you to change sidspeed, not actually change it for you.

    See the beginning of the thread mentioned above, to be found here http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=997083&mpage=1&key= for full information on how to do this.

    For information I have jsut laoded up SOnar 8, and with the 2.0rc drivers all my old LM test projects, which were all started in Sonar 6, and then carried on through Sonar 7 are playing back perfectly in 8, in fact I was able to lower the latency significantly due to the Audio improvements in Sonar 8. So its good news once you get it stable.

    Hey musicman 100, bunnyfluffer, we shoudl set up a Sonar/LiquidMix fabclub, coz its always the 3 of us in these threads, hope your both well :)
    #6
    Ham N Egz
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    RE: Liquid Mix and Sonar problems 2008/10/23 09:40:46 (permalink)
    HEY Gordon!!!!! Yea you think Focusrite would at least send the 3 of us a T Shirt???? Hmm you think we are pegged as LM fanboyz???

    Everything is as peachy as it can be .... I also installed SP8 and dam if it doesn't "sound" better... I know that is subjective.. AND my performance is better.. faster load times,, less CPU utilization and lower latency settings !!! Now I can still crash the damn thing with silly stuff like changing the Solo Dim settings.....

    Good to hear from you .. BTW our NFL football team the New Orleans Saints, are over in London this week introducing you guys to our "football" .. one of the employees from our locksmith shop runs the sideline instant replay monitor and he got to go to London ,, lucky bum!!!!

    Green Acres is the place to be
     I dont twitter, facebook, snapchat, instagram,linkedin,tumble,pinterest,flick, blah blah,lets have an old fashioned conversation!
     
    #7
    jonnycakes15
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    RE: Liquid Mix and Sonar problems 2008/10/23 10:41:35 (permalink)
    Yeah, I have tried it on three different computers, 4 or 5 different firewire cards, sonar 6,7,and 8. I will try the old driver, but I always kept up with every driver release and it has never worked properly. Focusrite has even had me testing Beta drivers a couple of different times; whick one of them worked as far as loading the project -- I got super excited and then - smack in the face - my audio on the LM channels was very distorted!
    #8
    jonnycakes15
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    RE: Liquid Mix and Sonar problems 2008/10/23 10:47:20 (permalink)
    Yes, they sent me the link to that "secret beta-section" a couple of different times. I am actually using the latest beta driver as we speak -- which helped the project to load correctly but now the audio on the LM channels is very distorted. Yes, everytime I installed the previous drivers/software to add a different version, I would go through the tedious process of finding and deleting all of the previous LM/Focusrite files. No Luck whatsoever! Thanks -- Jonny
    #9
    jonnycakes15
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    RE: Liquid Mix and Sonar problems 2008/10/23 10:50:15 (permalink)
    Gordonrussell76,
    I did make the proper registry changes when I installed the patch. Nothing seems to work for me with the LM!! Thanks anyway! -- Jonny
    #10
    gordonrussell76
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    RE: Liquid Mix and Sonar problems 2008/10/23 12:46:02 (permalink)
    Johhny

    Read the thread I linked to, there are so many places this can go wrong you have to try em all. And a lot fo the stuff suggested will make your PC run better for all music related stuff so its not a waste of time.

    G
    #11
    jonnycakes15
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    RE: Liquid Mix and Sonar problems 2008/10/23 15:54:37 (permalink)
    Okay, I will check that at in more detail and print it out! Actually, now that I am looking at the link, I think I read that a while ago when you first posted it. Looks like there is a lot o useful info on there. I will definately give it a try and see what happens. So you say I should roll back to the original 2.0 driver version? Because right now I am using the latest beta driver they wanted me to try -- it loads the project fine, but when I play back the tracks with the LM enabled, they are extremely distorted. It seems I can only have it one way or the other! Thanks, gordonrussell
    #12
    gordonrussell76
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    RE: Liquid Mix and Sonar problems 2008/10/23 17:24:53 (permalink)
    Yep, you want 2.0rc

    Its the only one that I can put my hand on heart and say works perfectly with 6,7 and Sonar 8.

    The good thing with this if your on this version, and its not working then you have a problem elsewhere, get it working on this version, and you can try the beta's, but stick with the known good why you try other variables, its the boring but scientific appraoch.

    Top of my head checklist

    1) CHeck you changed the SidSpeed for the firewire card, not the motherboard firewire (if you have it) I did that once, picked the wrong card in the registry DOH!
    2) Check your ASPI and BIOS IRQ assignments, make sure that NOTHING is sharing the same IRQ as your firewire card.
    3) Check your video card is not a hog
    4) look on the internet for XP/Vista as appropriate tweaks for audio usage.
    5) Make sure you have a big page file, this helps with load, and also is a good thing to do with a music PC, your page file should be just slightly smaller than your total amount of RAM.

    THeres more, but these are a good starter for 10

    Good luck
    #13
    jonnycakes15
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    RE: Liquid Mix and Sonar problems 2008/10/23 18:57:01 (permalink)
    Gordonrussell,
    just out of couriosity, are you saying that you do not have to make the proper changes in the registry for a built-in (motherboard) firewire controller? I always thought it was for any type of fire wire controller -- pci, motherboard. Also, I have checked the IRQ's before and the mobo firewire is by itslelf and then I installed a PCI firewire controller (suggestion by Focusrite) and it was also by itself. Now, I took the PCI firewire controller out and installed a PCIe FireWire controller (also a suggestion of focusrite) and checked the IRQ's and sadly, it is sharing the IRQ with my ATI 3400 video card. Do you think, for this reason alone, I should use the mobo fire wire or re-install the regular PCI fire wire card? I just want to be at a good starting point before I go deleting all of these files and making all of these changes for the hundredth time!! Thanks, again.
    #14
    jonnycakes15
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    RE: Liquid Mix and Sonar problems 2008/10/23 19:58:17 (permalink)
    Do you know where i can get the 2.0rc drivers. I can only find the 2.2.1 and the newer beta drivers. My DVD only has 1.5. Thanks
    #15
    jonnycakes15
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    RE: Liquid Mix and Sonar problems 2008/10/23 21:30:31 (permalink)
    Nevermind, I think I found them!
    #16
    gordonrussell76
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    RE: Liquid Mix and Sonar problems 2008/10/23 21:40:07 (permalink)
    Should be on the focusrite website, the actual website

    Here you go, went and found the link http://www.focusrite.com/support/files/liquid_mix/92/LiquidMixWebSetup-2.0rc1.zip

    That should take you straight there.

    G

    ps really check that you have rolled back correctly becuase hte LM installs have a habit of hanging around, ie its not a clean uninstall, someone laid out the procedure earlier in this thread.

    Good Luck
    post edited by gordonrussell76 - 2008/10/23 21:45:34
    #17
    gordonrussell76
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    RE: Liquid Mix and Sonar problems 2008/10/23 22:00:48 (permalink)
    Gordonrussell,
    just out of couriosity, are you saying that you do not have to make the proper changes in the registry for a built-in (motherboard) firewire controller? I always thought it was for any type of fire wire controller -- pci, motherboard. Also, I have checked the IRQ's before and the mobo firewire is by itslelf and then I installed a PCI firewire controller (suggestion by Focusrite) and it was also by itself. Now, I took the PCI firewire controller out and installed a PCIe FireWire controller (also a suggestion of focusrite) and checked the IRQ's and sadly, it is sharing the IRQ with my ATI 3400 video card. Do you think, for this reason alone, I should use the mobo fire wire or re-install the regular PCI fire wire card? I just want to be at a good starting point before I go deleting all of these files and making all of these changes for the hundredth time!! Thanks, again.


    No basically what I did was I was using a PCI firewire card with the LM but instead of changing the Registry entry for that PCI card I changed it for the Motherboard Firwire port that had nothing plugged into it DOH! One of those basic errors, thought I should mention it, becuase we all do STOOPID things now and then.

    If you getting a conflict with the video card, thats probably your issue. You should be able to cycle the IRQ in the BIOS and or the ASPI layer, but do it in the BIOS first its not that hard. This will sort it out at source.

    Basically when the load up problem is becuase the LM does most of its work at project load, it instanstiate all its plugins at once, this causes massive traffic accross Firewire, at the same time Sonar is loading a project with a whole bunch of graphics going on. Ergo if you have a conflict between your video card and hte LM then the Video card might be stealing resource causing hte LM to go bang.

    ONe thing a lot of people have noticed is that they get hte white screen of life just before everything loads, this could be that on our systems the LM takes precedence over hte video card, meaning that the graphical refresh has to wait in line till after the LM. This could be due to the latency settins on your video card, its also worth looking up on Google as to whether you can set the priority given to visual tasks to be lower.

    Some of the tweaks I mentioned earlier are around improved performance, Ie right clikc my computer, choose properties and then the advanced tab here you will find options for graphics, if you click custom and then untick every single one apart from teh last 2 (use drop shadoes and use visual styles), you will get massively improved performance with unnoticable effect to the visuals. The other tab advanced at this level is where you can change your page file as well, I suggest that you up this to being about 3/4 of your total RAm.

    Final thought if your PCI card was not conflicting, go with that, becuase if it ain't broke don't fix it. is your ATI card PCIe, this may also explain your issues becuase PCIe cards stop you from playing with Latency and can be real resourse hogs, I am still using an AGP based video card, and i like it.

    The best option might be to stick with your PCIe firewire card, and change to a PCI or AGP video card, ie if one of yoru cards is going to be a processor hog might as well be the Fireirw for hte LM. Oh and your mobo might have its IRQ hardwired by card type, another good reason to mix your card types to ensure that there are no IRQ conflicts.
    Good luck with it all
    post edited by gordonrussell76 - 2008/10/23 22:07:20
    #18
    jonnycakes15
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    RE: Liquid Mix and Sonar problems 2008/10/23 22:26:21 (permalink)
    I am going crazy here!!! At first, I tried the 2.2.1 drivers because someone said that they work fine for him (as I am currently using a beta driver), still freezing up the app. then I downloaded the 2.0 drivers and when I try to install(the actual hardware), it says it is missing the "lm1394_x86.sys" driver. I cannot find it in the LM folder anywhere. also, I have tried both my firewire cards, so the IRQ can't be the problem. BTW, I have a PCIe video card. Before I did the LM install, I did all of the necessary steps - - deleted all LM files and folders, checked firewire in registry, etc.
    #19
    jonnycakes15
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    RE: Liquid Mix and Sonar problems 2008/10/23 22:57:48 (permalink)
    Well, I finally got 2.0 to install, but now, instead of freezing up sonar, I just keep getting drop out after drop out. I think I officially have the worst problem between the LM and Sonar. As I stated earlier, I have been working with Focusrite on this issue for probably close to a year now. We have yet to figure out what in the world in going on with my system. I have spent hours upon hours trying to get this right. I guess I am going to have to do what I usaully do -- just have to manually re-install every single instance of the LM everytime I open a project. It sucks, but it works! I don't know what else to do. Thanks for everyone's help! -- Jonny
    #20
    gordonrussell76
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    RE: Liquid Mix and Sonar problems 2008/10/26 22:33:37 (permalink)
    Johnny

    Only thing I can say is try and be scientific, its sounds like your jumping all over the place, and you just won't get to the bottom of it like thtat.

    1) Get a solid instal of 2.0, it does not sound like you have managed that yet, you have installed and uninstalled so many times that the registry is probably full of cr*p. I would almost suggest rebuilding your machine. Before you started with this did you save a backup copy of your registry, if so go back to it. If not then rebuild save a copy and then try installing it. That way you can go back to a last known good configuration.
    2) Once you have a stable solid 2.0rc installation, then try all the other things suggested in this thread, 1 AT A TIME, if they don't manifest an improvement, switch em back and then try again.

    I know this might be grandmother sucking eggs territory, but the methodical approach is probably your only chance at this point.

    Good luck
    #21
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