Room Treatment

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papa2004
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RE: Room Treatment 2008/10/24 15:47:03 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: mike_mccue

One may or may not choose to be aware of the millions of beneficial insects we share the planet with. The pesticide sprayed on cotton fields kills all of them. I care about that... I understand other people believe they have a manifest destiny to harvest the earths bounty with every advantage they can imagine. I like to stay friendly about that... but honestly it breaks my heart.


Mike,

I really had no intention of starting a debate over the use of pesticides. That's a field in which I'm not well-educated (other than knowing what not to put in my mouth or the mouths of others). I was merely pointing to resources pertaining to the topic of room treatment and the use of "irritating" materials.

For the record, I consider some insects/pests (fleas, ticks, mosquitoes, roaches, fire-ants, venomous spiders, etc.,) to be hazardous to my health and the health of my loved ones (wife, grandkids, pets, etc.,) and have no qualms about seeing them destroyed. On the other hand, I use "organic based" shampoo and flea treatments on my dogs and in my home.

I fear that continuing to explain the reasoning behind my post will just cause more distraction from the original topic.

It would be my pleasure to enjoy a beer with you sometime, as well. Cheers!

Regards,
Papa
#61
inmazevo
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RE: Room Treatment 2008/10/24 16:04:45 (permalink)
Here's a question for all you room treatment folks.

I'm getting ready to treat my room for the first time. I've never done it, so forgive the ignorance, which I'll happily admit.

I've read many online articles, including Ethan Winer's, and I get the concept, but not the follow-through.
I'll post this here, but I'll be happy to post in a different thread or whatever, since I don't want to hijack.

So...
I have a 12x14 room, with hardwood floors, hardwood doors, and plaster walls. Two windows... a closet door, and the entry door.
My monitoring station is against the front 12' wall, centered, with a sub on the floor to the desk left, and monitors on desk top, equidistant from the walls... Window is just behind the right speaker.
The wall to 14' to the rear is also the closet wall, so it's a solid door, with a large plaster-walled space roughly... the door is 1/3, and the wall is 2/3, of the total space.

It's a strange, but not uncommon, setup, with lots of phase issues and echoing and focal points.

I suppose my question is:
Where to start?

I would like at least one diffused space, as well as some absorption panels and a couple of bass traps.

My initial thought would be to absorb in the corners to the left and right rear of the desk... diffuse and absorb on the rear... and diffuse and absorb on one of the other walls.
Is this a good starting point?

Is it sort of trial and error? Meaning, should I assume the possibility of reconfiguring for optimal treatment as I go (if so, I'll need to factor that into my fixtures so they aren't immovable)?

Any sites, references?

I can get the hardware locally, and plan a DIY job... don't have the budget for 3rd party, pre-made stuff.

Thanks, and like I said, I'll start a new thread of this question takes this one too far from the original topic.
- zevo

(PS - and perhaps very important: this is an in-the-box studio... no mics... no vocal/guitar recording... so think: monitoring/mixing/mastering rather than drums, guitars, singers, trumpets, etc.)
post edited by inmazevo - 2008/10/24 16:11:30
#62
ed97643
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RE: Room Treatment 2008/10/24 16:57:34 (permalink)
Zevo, trial and error will probably play a large part. Just don't position your monitors directly against the walls if possible. Run Ethan's "low sweep" test and take measurements. Start with some DIY absorbers, traps, etc. and (once in place) re-measure again with Ethan's test. The goal is to get improved results, so move stuff, re-test, compare notes, repeat until it's better. It's a hassle, but worth it.

Registered Cakewalk user since 1995
#63
mattplaysguitar
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RE: Room Treatment 2008/10/24 18:45:30 (permalink)
Everyone is always refering to Ethan's low sweep test, when I find this to be a much more detailed test of your room acoustics.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/

It creates the sweep for you much quicker than Ethan's test and you can also get a decay readout as well which is very important. This can help you eliminate ringing in your room at certain frequencies. Seriously check this out, it is AMAZING.
#64
inmazevo
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RE: Room Treatment 2008/10/24 19:05:38 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: mattplaysguitar
Everyone is always refering to Ethan's low sweep test, when I find this to be a much more detailed test of your room acoustics.
http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/
It creates the sweep for you much quicker than Ethan's test and you can also get a decay readout as well which is very important. This can help you eliminate ringing in your room at certain frequencies. Seriously check this out, it is AMAZING.


Thanks for the link. I looked through the documentation on how to use that app, and I must say:
Wow. I really AM at the beginning of this little adventure.

Looks like I'll be spending the weekend doing more research, rather than actually starting to order parts and clean up the walls.
Maybe next weekend I'll be a bit better prepared to make my best, first educated guess.

Cool. I'm good with that.
I'd rather take my time now and do it right (or wrong, and fix it). In a couple of years, the plan is to build a dedicated studio space. This room's a temp space, anyway, so it's good for experimentation.

Thanks for the tips,
- zevo
#65
mattplaysguitar
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RE: Room Treatment 2008/10/24 19:27:37 (permalink)
Hey no probs zevo. It's a pretty confusing program to start off with, but just follow the step by step instructions closely and you should be able to work it out. It's no harder than SONAR to learn so I'm sure you'll be right with enough time on it. Unfortunately though it's not just as easy as plug and play.

I learnt SO much from trial and error using that program. I found I could reduce peeks in my room from 15dB to 10dB simply by moving speaker or listener position by maybe half a foot. Monitor placement is really so important so play around with this a lot with it.

A nice thing I learn once with the placing of absorbers is to only place however many you NEED. So what do you need? Imagine your room had walls and rooves of mirrors. Now sit in your listening position. Looking at the walls, where would you be able to see you speakers in the reflection? At those points on the walls, place an absorber of around 3x3ft. Room one is generally going to be 3' wide but much longer due to the spacing of your monitors. The diffusers your can then place to stop things such a flutter echoes. I found the side absorbers to be very effective in clearing up the high end monitoring and your stereo space.

Obviously it gets MUCH more complicated than that, but do some reasearch, find the best position to place your desk in your room, then find the place for your monitors, then start high frequency treatment, then spend a good length of time placing your sub if you have one, then deal with bass traps. That's how I would work through it, but those last bits could obviously be mixed a round a bit and I'm no acoustic pro or anything. But there is SO much to learn, it's great!
#66
aleef
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RE: Room Treatment 2008/10/24 19:52:39 (permalink)
wow!! what a wealth of information..and a wealth of uncertainty... all this time i was lead to beleive, that good musicians, with decent instruments, and good mic placement... could sound great in any room....i got the oportunity to tour Hitsville USA(MOTOWN) when i was in Detroit years ago..and they didn't have none of that sh*t... and they have sold more records than EVERYBODY....

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#67
The Maillard Reaction
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RE: Room Treatment 2008/10/24 20:39:54 (permalink)
Hi Papa,
I didn't mean to lecture to you... I meant it all in a friendly way. The idea that cotton is "better" than other "bad for you" materials is a pet peeve... because I just hope that people understand the choices they make. I use a lot of cotton clothing and bedding so there's no way I'm saying cotton is inherently bad... it's just more complicated than what most people think about at first appraisal.

Cottons "Natural" campaign is pure genius... people assume they are referring to a comparison to synthetic fiber and buy into the whole "natural" thing. It's the ultimate shell game and worth learning a lesson from. Those guys are GOOD at what they do.

This conversation did inspire me to purchase this book this morning:

http://www.amazon.com/Big-Cotton-Created-Fortunes-Civilizations/dp/0670033677

I found this quote in the first review available at Amazon to be both fascinating and appropriate in a VERY LOOSELY related way:

"Todd A. Schneider wrote:
I spent my first 24 years working on the family cotton farm in apparent ignorance of cottons significant impact on this nation and the world. I only wish I had access to such a book while I was growing up so that I could better understand and appreciate the history, and future, of cotton."

I'm not trying to recommend a book... especially one that may have negative connotations. I just typed Big Cotton into Google and it popped up and grabbed my attention. I hope, despite the title, it's got a balanced viewpoint.

Anyways, I'd enjoy sharing a frosty beverage with you as well.

I think I should refrain from distracting anyone further.

all the best,
mike


#68
RockStringBender
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RE: Room Treatment 2008/10/24 21:52:17 (permalink)
Had the same approach. Get educated and then implement.

My 1st thought is....... what are you doing with the room footprint behind the console that is jammed against the wall? Are you using it as living space or is it dedicated?. Any fixed furniture? Area rugs? Ceiling Heigth? Curtains on the windows?


ORIGINAL: inmazevo

Here's a question for all you room treatment folks.

I'm getting ready to treat my room for the first time. I've never done it, so forgive the ignorance, which I'll happily admit.

I've read many online articles, including Ethan Winer's, and I get the concept, but not the follow-through.
I'll post this here, but I'll be happy to post in a different thread or whatever, since I don't want to hijack.

So...
I have a 12x14 room, with hardwood floors, hardwood doors, and plaster walls. Two windows... a closet door, and the entry door.
My monitoring station is against the front 12' wall, centered, with a sub on the floor to the desk left, and monitors on desk top, equidistant from the walls... Window is just behind the right speaker.
The wall to 14' to the rear is also the closet wall, so it's a solid door, with a large plaster-walled space roughly... the door is 1/3, and the wall is 2/3, of the total space.

It's a strange, but not uncommon, setup, with lots of phase issues and echoing and focal points.

I suppose my question is:
Where to start?

I would like at least one diffused space, as well as some absorption panels and a couple of bass traps.

My initial thought would be to absorb in the corners to the left and right rear of the desk... diffuse and absorb on the rear... and diffuse and absorb on one of the other walls.
Is this a good starting point?

Is it sort of trial and error? Meaning, should I assume the possibility of reconfiguring for optimal treatment as I go (if so, I'll need to factor that into my fixtures so they aren't immovable)?

Any sites, references?

I can get the hardware locally, and plan a DIY job... don't have the budget for 3rd party, pre-made stuff.

Thanks, and like I said, I'll start a new thread of this question takes this one too far from the original topic.
- zevo

(PS - and perhaps very important: this is an in-the-box studio... no mics... no vocal/guitar recording... so think: monitoring/mixing/mastering rather than drums, guitars, singers, trumpets, etc.)


I wish my lawn was emo..... then it would cut itself.
#69
The Maillard Reaction
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RE: Room Treatment 2008/10/24 21:59:40 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: mattplaysguitar

Everyone is always refering to Ethan's low sweep test, when I find this to be a much more detailed test of your room acoustics.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/

It creates the sweep for you much quicker than Ethan's test and you can also get a decay readout as well which is very important. This can help you eliminate ringing in your room at certain frequencies. Seriously check this out, it is AMAZING.



Yes, this looks interesting Matt.

Does anyone have an opinion about Java on a DAW? I'm ignorant about it and am seeking some insights form others.

I use TrueRTA but it doesn't have the cool waterfall display.

I'm curious.

best,
mike


#70
mattplaysguitar
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RE: Room Treatment 2008/10/24 23:24:01 (permalink)
I have not had any problems with running the program at all on my computer, though this is not a dedicated DAW and is used for internet and word processing and engineering programs and the like - but no games. Games are evil.. So I don't have it totally optimised for DAW so many processes are still enabled. I would guess it's probably fine to give it a test run and hopefully you don't need to get any java updates or anything like that to get it working properly. As this is designed for the audio person I'm sure it 'should' run fine on any DAW, but maybe wait for some Java experts of you want real advice
#71
tarsier
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RE: Room Treatment 2008/10/25 10:54:02 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: mike_mccue
ORIGINAL: mattplaysguitar
http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/

Does anyone have an opinion about Java on a DAW? I'm ignorant about it and am seeking some insights form others.

I love REW. And as for Java on a daw, it's fine here. We do sound for games, and our media tracking database is a Java app run from a browser. So we use Java and Sonar a lot together. Just make sure after you install Java that you disable its automatic update check which will always run at startup. Use one of the handy startup program managers out there. (why, oh why, do these software companies make things that startup automatically?)
#72
The Maillard Reaction
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RE: Room Treatment 2008/10/25 11:06:03 (permalink)
Thank You Tarsier.


#73
papa2004
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RE: Room Treatment 2008/10/25 12:50:05 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: aleef

wow!! what a wealth of information..and a wealth of uncertainty... all this time i was lead to beleive, that good musicians, with decent instruments, and good mic placement... could sound great in any room....i got the oportunity to tour Hitsville USA(MOTOWN) when i was in Detroit years ago..and they didn't have none of that sh*t... and they have sold more records than EVERYBODY....


Don't be misled by what "used to work" (for example, Motown used attic space for their infamous echo chambers)...As to good musicians with decent instruments and proper mic placement you're somewhat correct...That, however, isn't necessarily relevant to a good mixing/mastering environment. The wrong speakers in the wrong room with an engineer who has the wrong ears is an invitation for disaster.

The Motown history is a lot deeper than what is presented on some websites and the "Hitsville" tours--mainly because it would be pretty boring to "John Doe". I don't have a problem keeping things "simple"...Many hits have been recorded in garages or "studios" that had egg crates and blankets attached to walls...That isn't to say that the acoustic conditions were "ideal"...For whatever reason, it just worked 'back in the day'...

Regards,
Papa
#74
The Maillard Reaction
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RE: Room Treatment 2008/10/25 13:07:30 (permalink)
Well, I'm a real big fan of the Motown sound... but it is a sound... and in the early days the sound was fairly consistent... which these days might be described as NOT VERSATILE.

How often do we hear an acoustic guitar in an early Motown tune? I'd have to guess "zero times" but I'm sure I'm unaware of the bulk of their product... I just now the most famous Hitsville stuff.

best regards,
mike


#75
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