Mixing Mono in Stereo

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Philip
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2008/11/01 23:56:21 (permalink)

Mixing Mono in Stereo

Any of you find yourself using mono for vox or other instruments? Why or why not? I realize that this may have been done in the 1960s and 1970s out of necessity.

--Is this psycho-acoustically acceptable or dissonant (to your ears)?
--Do you create mono track(s) to bring it forward in your mix?
--Do you pan them diversely? >50% LT and/or RT?

IIRC, some mixing engineers still do this: positioning several or all musical elements as mono tracks ... all over the stereo-panarama … and possibly even avoiding some risky EQ-sculpting thus?

I've been positioning some partial mono tracks with vox, acoustic and electric guitar, and synth instruments, oft to help add clarity and separation to instruments that are fighting in the mix. Results seem a bit good at this point:

Mono really brings forward an instrument and puts it *there*. It becomes apparently louder in mono and its volume levels might be reduced 3 dcbs + or -.

Thank you for any of your thoughts thus.

Philip  
(Isa 5:12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the LORD)

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    jamesg1213
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    RE: Mixing Mono in Stereo 2008/11/02 03:36:49 (permalink)
    In general terms I believe if the source is mono, you should record it in mono. I always record vocals, bass, flute, violin, etc as mono tracks. Much easier to place in the stereo field.

     
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    mattplaysguitar
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    RE: Mixing Mono in Stereo 2008/11/02 04:19:14 (permalink)
    In complex mixes with many instruments, it's usually advisable to make your tracks more mono so as to reduce the risk of mudd. Simple tracks with just a guitar and vox could benefit from a stereo miced guitar much more than something with a full band involved.

    I personally record everything in mono as my equipment limits me, but I would do that anyway most of the time. I then use delay to bring some stereo perspective and reverb often sounds good with a little bit of stereo separation. I also use doubling (recorded, not cloned, then panned) of tracks often to obtain my stereo effect. Generally I don't like to get each individual instrument to have too much stereo separation. It just gets lost in the mix like that. I like it to have it's own place in the stereo field, frequency field, and depth. If it has lots of stereo room in it's particular place where it is living, it can sometimes be ok to widen it a little to fill that gap a bit more, but often I don't like to go too much.

    I only have a condenser and dynamic mic so can't do traditional stereo micing, but I find you can get a larger sound by double micing your instrument and panning the condenser hardish to one side (due to it being more bright) and then the dynamic slightly softer to that same side. This can really fill out the entire side of one channel and sound very omnipresent. Just gotta be careful there are no phasing issues.

    You mention panning to help avoid possible EQ problems. I would try to steer clear of this being a solution to badly EQed/recorded instruments. I always like to check my mixes in mono to make sure I am not losing anything that sounds fine in the stereo field, but disappears in mono.

    I think more mono sounds tend to sound more forward in the mix as they don't get as masked, but it always depends on the situation.
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    JavaMan
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    RE: Mixing Mono in Stereo 2008/11/02 09:54:15 (permalink)
    I almost always use mono tracks....gives me more flexibilty in my mix especially with panning.
    post edited by JavaMan - 2008/11/02 09:55:01
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    cliffsp8
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    RE: Mixing Mono in Stereo 2008/11/02 10:17:35 (permalink)
    Also, if you have some stereo tracks and want to reduce their width and pan the results across the stereo field then the new channel tools plug-in is your friend.

    Synths ouputs, for instance, tend to be stereo and can swamp the rest of the sound unless they are constrained some how, and this is one way of doing it. Reverb returns too can be panned local to the original source to avoid it washing out the whole sound. Not always necessary but sometimes it is.

    Cliff
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    Philip
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    RE: Mixing Mono in Stereo 2008/11/02 10:49:29 (permalink)
    In general terms I believe if the source is mono, you should record it in mono. I always record vocals, bass, flute, violin, etc as mono tracks. Much easier to place in the stereo field.

    I almost always use mono tracks....gives me more flexibilty in my mix especially with panning.

    --Thanks James, JavaMan, for validating this logic. So you even record/mix bass guitar in mono. That should help my muddy stereo bass-lines clear up tremendously.

    Synths ouputs, for instance, tend to be stereo and can swamp the rest of the sound unless they are constrained some how, and this is one way of doing it. Reverb returns too can be panned local to the original source to avoid it washing out the whole sound. Not always necessary but sometimes it is.

    --The dilemma of Reverbing behind the sources or panning a reverb oppositely has perplexed me at times. In vocals, I'm sceered to apply much verb or delay (if any), due to this. But many instruments need to sink behind while remaining discreet, in their own space. Some DimPro strings I invariably leave as default stereo, realizing the contrived panning works well with the default "hall" reverb. Strings (for me) seem to need chorusy stereo and low volumes.
    But, Cliff, I now know to take the other Dimpro mono-instruments and make them mono.

    In complex mixes with many instruments, it's usually advisable to make your tracks more mono so as to reduce the risk of mudd. Simple tracks with just a guitar and vox could benefit from a stereo miced guitar much more than something with a full band involved.

    I personally record everything in mono as my equipment limits me, but I would do that anyway most of the time. I then use delay to bring some stereo perspective and reverb often sounds good with a little bit of stereo separation. I also use doubling (recorded, not cloned, then panned) of tracks often to obtain my stereo effect. Generally I don't like to get each individual instrument to have too much stereo separation. It just gets lost in the mix like that. I like it to have it's own place in the stereo field, frequency field, and depth. If it has lots of stereo room in it's particular place where it is living, it can sometimes be ok to widen it a little to fill that gap a bit more, but often I don't like to go too much.

    I only have a condenser and dynamic mic so can't do traditional stereo micing, but I find you can get a larger sound by double micing your instrument and panning the condenser hardish to one side (due to it being more bright) and then the dynamic slightly softer to that same side. This can really fill out the entire side of one channel and sound very omnipresent. Just gotta be careful there are no phasing issues.

    You mention panning to help avoid possible EQ problems. I would try to steer clear of this being a solution to badly EQed/recorded instruments. I always like to check my mixes in mono to make sure I am not losing anything that sounds fine in the stereo field, but disappears in mono.

    I think more mono sounds tend to sound more forward in the mix as they don't get as masked, but it always depends on the situation.

    --Matt, thank you. You speak very well, like a veteran mixing engineer. I’ve repeatedly done a technique of stereo micing for vox only and have panned the condenser 45degrees and set back about 10 inches from the Pearlman (tube?) mic. (So far no serious phasing issues). I suppose I’ll pull out my dynamic mics and try some ‘angled’ approaches … for single channel omnipresence.

    The last 7 days I’ve started using mono-checks on mixes (using Ozone3 … since I can’t figure out how to do Sonar’s mono checks). Its helped tremendously; I swear by it now.

    Philip  
    (Isa 5:12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the LORD)

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    bitflipper
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    RE: Mixing Mono in Stereo 2008/11/02 11:15:45 (permalink)
    IMO, every track should be mono unless it clearly benefits in some way from being stereo. This avoids a LOT of problems.

    Of course, there is really no such thing as a true mono source in the real world, because we hear everything with two ears and those two ears don't hear the same sound from any source. Even an electric bass guitar has a three-dimensional aspect. But in an ensemble, getting the full stereo image is much less important than establishing clarity for each instrument, so mono is definitely the way to go.

    There are a few exceptions. All solo acoustical instruments should be recorded in stereo. If you're recording a piano sonata, it should absolutely be stereo - but rock piano almost never needs to be. A string ensemble should be stereo. A Leslie should be stereo. Of course, drum overheads, too. Not much else needs to be.

    post edited by bitflipper - 2008/11/02 11:23:47


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    Philip
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    RE: Mixing Mono in Stereo 2008/11/02 16:44:28 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: bitflipper

    IMO, every track should be mono unless it clearly benefits in some way from being stereo. This avoids a LOT of problems.

    Of course, there is really no such thing as a true mono source in the real world, because we hear everything with two ears and those two ears don't hear the same sound from any source. Even an electric bass guitar has a three-dimensional aspect. But in an ensemble, getting the full stereo image is much less important than establishing clarity for each instrument, so mono is definitely the way to go.

    There are a few exceptions. All solo acoustical instruments should be recorded in stereo. If you're recording a piano sonata, it should absolutely be stereo - but rock piano almost never needs to be. A string ensemble should be stereo. A Leslie should be stereo. Of course, drum overheads, too. Not much else needs to be.



    Well, I must say; this really validates my deepest suspicians: "getting the full stereo image is much less important than establishing clarity for each instrument, mono is definitely the way to go".

    ('Wonder why not all Mixing engineers haven't stressed this.)

    I've been hitting the "stereo interleve" under the fx bins (to *1/2*) on several tracks, wondering if this provides true mono for instruments recorded in stereo.

    Philip  
    (Isa 5:12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the LORD)

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    mattplaysguitar
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    RE: Mixing Mono in Stereo 2008/11/02 19:03:57 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: Philip

    --Matt, thank you. You speak very well, like a veteran mixing engineer. I’ve repeatedly done a technique of stereo micing for vox only and have panned the condenser 45degrees and set back about 10 inches from the Pearlman (tube?) mic. (So far no serious phasing issues). I suppose I’ll pull out my dynamic mics and try some ‘angled’ approaches … for single channel omnipresence.

    The last 7 days I’ve started using mono-checks on mixes (using Ozone3 … since I can’t figure out how to do Sonar’s mono checks). Its helped tremendously; I swear by it now.



    Hahaha, thanks, but I'm certainly no veteran mixing engineer I'm actually only 21. Most of what I know (or think I know) is from the past 5 or so years of constant reading. I think I could do quite well in a theory exam! I do spend a lot of time experimenting with all the things that I am talking about, but please do remember that I really don't have a huge amount of expereince compared to some of the guys here, so if they contradict, they are more likely to be correct! Oh, and that condenser/dynamic double micing pan trick is just something I played around with myself, no reading on that, so no idea if it's conventional or not! (I would guess it's not a common one). What it essentially is doing in the end is panning an instrument on its frequencies. For example 400-800Hz are panned around 30L, 800-4k are effectively panned 50L and >4k sound as though they are panned 70L. 'Kind' of like a piano can be panned.. in a way.

    I personally don't find any need to mic a vocal in stereo. I think that's just going to get a little tricky to work with. I would be more inclined to record your parts twice and pan 30L, 30R and then some careful use of delays and verb. Or you can record your main vox that was sung best, centre it, then another two takes panned out left and right and put back slightly softer in the mix. Also if you cut some of the highs out on those pans then it makes it sound less like three takes because what I find helps makes a vocal sound like multiple vocals is when sharp sounds (s'es for example) are slightly off time. Cutting those *could* make it sound more like a single vocal, that comes form everywhere. I often put a sharp lowpass and highpass on my delays as well because you don't need as much content in those to get the desired effect. If you leave it the same as the original then it may be filling the space with too much stuff and it can make your vocals unclear. I would probably often highpass it up to 600-800Hz and lowpass to maybe 4k, but that depends on how noticeable you want the delay to be. For a strong noticeable delay (which I am hearing in more and more pop songs these days) I would probably not use a lowpass filter and cut my highpass even higher.

    I also agree 100% with everything bitflipper has said.

    And remember that every recommended technique is always just 'recommended'. There are many ways to do things and just because something isn't conventional, doesn't mean it won't work for the particular song in question. Certain techniques often make a good final product much much much more difficult to achieve, but you never know, in the right situation, it may just be what is needed for that song. Never say never, but with many things, you can say pretty much almost never. For example "but rock piano almost never needs to be".
    post edited by mattplaysguitar - 2008/11/02 19:07:23
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    Spaceduck
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    RE: Mixing Mono in Stereo 2008/11/02 22:58:59 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: mattplaysguitar

    you can record your main vox that was sung best, centre it, then another two takes panned out left and right and put back slightly softer in the mix. Also if you cut some of the highs out on those pans then it makes it sound less like three takes because what I find helps makes a vocal sound like multiple vocals is when sharp sounds (s'es for example) are slightly off time. Cutting those *could* make it sound more like a single vocal, that comes form everywhere.


    Genius! I'm going to try exactly that. I already do the first part (best take goes in the center, two more get panned R & L and mixed low), but you're right; the hi freq 's' & 'f' sounds are a dead giveaway if they're not spot on. Along the lines of what you've suggested, maybe you can just use clip automation to kill the 's' and 'f' sounds completely from the doubled tracks. (Bitflip actually suggested this in a different thread about those pesky sounds).

    Recording vocals in stereo... hmm, I've never tried it. I bet it would be a good idea if you had a really great sounding room. Or if you actually use a real plate for reverb like in the old days, Methuselah. But me, I just rely on artificial techniques to give it a stereo image.

    For instruments I do the same thing as with vocals, except I don't have a center track. I just use 2 tracks L & R. The exception is bass, because I was taught in school that low frequencies are not directional. But other than that, all my acoustic instruments are doubled & hard panned. It works great with cello & acoustic guitar. Electric piano too, believe it or not; listen to my latest tune (in sig)... the entire piano part is recorded twice, and each take is panned to a different ear. (just gotta make sure you remember exactly how you played it the last time!)

    If I were doing a true solo piece, I'd definitely record the instrument in stereo. But in a rock context, I think mono + FX is the best thing for the mix. Oh, one thing about stereo pianos... if your low notes are in the left ear and your high notes are in the right ear, it's a dead giveaway that it's a fake (midi) piano. There is no way you could have that sort of separation in the real world, but digital pianos all sound that way


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    altima_boy_2001
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    RE: Mixing Mono in Stereo 2008/11/03 06:05:49 (permalink)
    I've been hitting the "stereo interleave" under the fx bins (to *1/2*) on several tracks, wondering if this provides true mono for instruments recorded in stereo.

    What do you mean "true mono"? Setting the track interleave to mono sums the left and right stereo channels into a single channel. Assuming your pan is set to center, both channels will play identical material and that's pretty much the definition of mono. The results may be slightly different than if you had recorded the performance with a single mic, but the result is still mono.

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    Philip
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    RE: Mixing Mono in Stereo 2008/11/03 11:43:06 (permalink)
    Also if you cut some of the highs out on those pans then it makes it sound less like three takes because what I find helps makes a vocal sound like multiple vocals is when sharp sounds (s'es for example) are slightly off time. Cutting those *could* make it sound more like a single vocal, that comes form everywhere. I often put a sharp lowpass and highpass on my delays as well because you don't need as much content in those to get the desired effect. If you leave it the same as the original then it may be filling the space with too much stuff and it can make your vocals unclear. I would probably often highpass it up to 600-800Hz and lowpass to maybe 4k, but that depends on how noticeable you want the delay to be. For a strong noticeable delay (which I am hearing in more and more pop songs these days) I would probably not use a lowpass filter and cut my highpass even higher.

    --Matt, obviously I'm 'learning-as-I-go'; but what you say makes wise sense; something the vet engineers may just take for granted (and I've read alot). Age means nothing to me (expecially if you're 19 or older; I'm 51).

    ORIGINAL: altima_boy_2001

    I've been hitting the "stereo interleave" under the fx bins (to *1/2*) on several tracks, wondering if this provides true mono for instruments recorded in stereo.

    What do you mean "true mono"? Setting the track interleave to mono sums the left and right stereo channels into a single channel. Assuming your pan is set to center, both channels will play identical material and that's pretty much the definition of mono. The results may be slightly different than if you had recorded the performance with a single mic, but the result is still mono.

    --Lucas, I think you cleared it up ... (the S7 help files just state "mono", vs. summed mono). I've been getting true-leveled and various 'stereo widening' (for chorus and intro) mono (if there be such a thing) via Sonitus Phase VST. Sometimes the terms get away on me. Obviously I've had to reduce a lot of volume levels either way

    --Sometimes the a mono-track gets me pondering: How much ‘space’ or ‘room’ is now being gobbled up? Is mono unnatural in a stereo panorama? And/or, how wide is mono vs. stereo? While these questions are important, the ears especially must judge the psycho-acoustics.

    If I were doing a true solo piece, I'd definitely record the instrument in stereo. But in a rock context, I think mono + FX is the best thing for the mix. Oh, one thing about stereo pianos... if your low notes are in the left ear and your high notes are in the right ear, it's a dead giveaway that it's a fake (midi) piano. There is no way you could have that sort of separation in the real world, but digital pianos all sound that way

    --SD, glad you’re validating. Matt’s really got some logical thoughts on reducing plosives, brights, and sibilants in multi-takes … as they do seem to rob authenticity.
    Now that you mentioned low notes in the left and high or the right (which actually seems sensible to me on paper) …
    Some string-synths do the inverse (in Dimpro): High violins are LT and lows on RT. Thus, I have to remind myself never to pan synth-strings RT, as the violins (higher notes) start to level down. Now, for the same reason, I’d probably never wish pan all my stereo pianos LT, especially when high notes are needed.

    Philip  
    (Isa 5:12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the LORD)

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    DX1451
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    RE: Mixing Mono in Stereo 2008/11/03 14:09:26 (permalink)
    Recording a musical instrument with a 360 sound pattern in mono, such as saxophone, simply sucks.

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