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Stevvy McMantooth
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RE: History 2008/11/06 09:44:00 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Milt

I guess that all you folks that are feeling so warm and gushy over the victory of a Marxist thug are gonna be the first to send your hard earned money to him so he can give it to people who he thinks deserves it more than you do!




hahahaha. wow! what are you afraid of?


hmm deserve it more than I do? Well we already know that the banks and wall st deserve it more than I do. They just got 700 billion of it. How would you describe and categorize that? I'm just curious?





That's BullSh%T Stevvy... and you know it!




stevvy - pronounced (St) + (hěv'ē) st-heavy
#31
Kalle Rantaaho
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RE: History 2008/11/06 16:04:43 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Milt

I guess that all you folks that are feeling so warm and gushy over the victory of a Marxist thug are gonna be the first to send your hard earned money to him so he can give it to people who he thinks deserves it more than you do!


From a north european point of view: It's embarrassing, that the only political alternatives you have in the USA are right and ultra right. And in 90% of the cases when people use the word "communism", "marxism" or "leftie" etc. they don't actually have the slightest clue of what it actually means. It's like "bogey man", something that means a different thing to each person, talk that only moves on the fairy-tale-level.
In europe it's normal to have 4-7 different parties in the senate/parliament, from socialists to hard right and the only things we lack here are slums and american crime rates.

If it's marxism to have equal education possibilities and a health insurance system that makes it possible for a cleaning lady to have a heart transplant and her daughter to become a doctor (without being an exceptional scholarship talent) then be it.(And this comes from the country that Nokia comes from, so we do have our millionaires, too).

Don't expect Obama to be a Messiah. He may be good, but he can't change the sea he has to swim in. I'm really glad he got elected, though.

Knud Moeller, a great late journalist wrote: " To the citizens of a big country the news of the world are a peeping hole through which they look when they feel like it. For the citizens of a small country the news of the world are an open window, through which the storm blows in."
I think that explains very well the (average) attitude difference between Europe and the USA. An average american working guy doesn't need to care/know about the rest of the world. The only time he does, is when his job goes to China.

My grandma once said: " How many things were different, if the enemy bombers had once howled over Washington?" If starting a conflict would really mean the risk of having LA bombed to crumbs, the eagernes wouldn't be that great. Even when the conflict is for acceptable reasons.

What I'm saying is (or am I saying anyhing?), we share the same globe, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything.
We're animals, and when the going gets tough, we, as nations, concentrate on our own belly button, and then, there's an excuse for anything.

post edited by Kalle Rantaaho - 2008/11/06 16:06:07

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#32
artsoul
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RE: History 2008/11/06 16:25:01 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Kalle Rantaaho

ORIGINAL: Milt

I guess that all you folks that are feeling so warm and gushy over the victory of a Marxist thug are gonna be the first to send your hard earned money to him so he can give it to people who he thinks deserves it more than you do!


From a north european point of view: It's embarrassing, that the only political alternatives you have in the USA are right and ultra right. And in 90% of the cases when people use the word "communism", "marxism" or "leftie" etc. they don't actually have the slightest clue of what it actually means. It's like "bogey man", something that means a different thing to each person, talk that only moves on the fairy-tale-level.
In europe it's normal to have 4-7 different parties in the senate/parliament, from socialists to hard right and the only things we lack here are slums and american crime rates.

If it's marxism to have equal education possibilities and a health insurance system that makes it possible for a cleaning lady to have a heart transplant and her daughter to become a doctor (without being an exceptional scholarship talent) then be it.(And this comes from the country that Nokia comes from, so we do have our millionaires, too).

Don't expect Obama to be a Messiah. He may be good, but he can't change the sea he has to swim in. I'm really glad he got elected, though.

Knud Moeller, a great late journalist wrote: " To the citizens of a big country the news of the world are a peeping hole through which they look when they feel like it. For the citizens of a small country the news of the world are an open window, through which the storm blows in."
I think that explains very well the (average) attitude difference between Europe and the USA. An average american working guy doesn't need to care/know about the rest of the world. The only time he does, is when his job goes to China.

My grandma once said: " How many things were different, if the enemy bombers had once howled over Washington?" If starting a conflict would really mean the risk of having LA bombed to crumbs, the eagernes wouldn't be that great. Even when the conflict is for acceptable reasons.

What I'm saying is (or am I saying anyhing?), we share the same globe, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything.
We're animals, and when the going gets tough, we, as nations, concentrate on our own belly button, and then, there's an excuse for anything.





Amazing post

thank you for you clarity.

I think Americans dont realise how they are percieved by the rest of the world.. its sad that such a high proportion of people round the world go from resigned tolerance to outright hatred. Yet the average american cannot see beyond his/her flag and ask themselves why.

maybe a part of the reason that this forum is so sonar jingo-istic is that most here are from the US?
(the amount of replies I recieved on the lines of "love it or get out" when i criticised ckae was shocking)


Andy
#33
jinga8
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RE: History 2008/11/06 16:41:34 (permalink)

I think Americans dont realise how they are percieved by the rest of the world..

Only the dumb ones. Or, at least, the ones that don't realise that there is a "rest of the world."

its sad that such a high proportion of people round the world go from resigned tolerance to outright hatred.

Not so sad. Just human. Humans are only one of millions of species. Not the best, not the worst, just somewhere in the middle.

Yet the average american cannot see beyond his/her flag and ask themselves why.

And the average Scot plays bagpipes, golf, and wears a kilt? Right? Not arguing...just saying...and that flag, if the wind blows it out of their eyes, can they see then, or is this more of a condemnation than a metaphor?

maybe a part of the reason that this forum is so sonar jingo-istic is that most here are from the US?

Maybe. Who knows? Certainly not because I've polled 1,000,000 american trees, and not one...not one...has been jingo-istic. (Well, there was this poplar in Delaware that tried to....oh, nevermind...not being American, you probably don't deserve to know...)

I don't believe in politics or God. I believe in diet coke.
#34
artsoul
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RE: History 2008/11/06 16:43:54 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: jinga8


I think Americans dont realise how they are percieved by the rest of the world..

Only the dumb ones. Or, at least, the ones that don't realise that there is a "rest of the world."

its sad that such a high proportion of people round the world go from resigned tolerance to outright hatred.

Not so sad. Just human. Humans are only one of millions of species. Not the best, not the worst, just somewhere in the middle.

Yet the average american cannot see beyond his/her flag and ask themselves why.

And the average Scot plays bagpipes, golf, and wears a kilt? Right? Not arguing...just saying...and that flag, if the wind blows it out of their eyes, can they see then, or is this more of a condemnation than a metaphor?

maybe a part of the reason that this forum is so sonar jingo-istic is that most here are from the US?

Maybe. Who knows? Certainly not because I've polled 1,000,000 american trees, and not one...not one...has been jingo-istic. (Well, there was this poplar in Delaware that tried to....oh, nevermind...not being American, you probably don't deserve to know...)

I don't believe in politics or God. I believe in diet coke.




Jinga

all good and salient points, I didnt say that all americans were like that, but there are enough to make the point pertinent.
#35
AJ_0000
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RE: History 2008/11/07 05:16:45 (permalink)
I'm of two minds about it.

On the one hand, I think it's great that we've elected a black president.

On the other hand, seeing the way the entire media and entertainment industry unified into a propaganda juggernaut to put him into office is deeply disturbing to me as someone who values individual liberty, free thought, and freedom of expression. Orwell is rolling in his grave.

Seeing the hypnotized masses at that rally made part of me feel like I no longer live in a free country.
#36
ducatibruce2
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RE: History 2008/11/07 05:35:57 (permalink)
On the other hand, seeing the way the entire media and entertainment industry unified into a propaganda juggernaut to put him into office is deeply disturbing to me as someone who values individual liberty, free thought, and freedom of expression. Orwell is rolling in his grave.


But they are the same people who were so keen on the march into Iraq too - without getting into the rights or wrongs of going into Iraq, it didnt turn out to be anything like the government or media predictions/gameplan did it?

Edit to add: they predicted a cakewalk didnt they <--- futile attempt to be somewhat on topic for Sonar forum
post edited by ducatibruce2 - 2008/11/07 05:40:05

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#37
Qwerty69
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RE: History 2008/11/07 05:45:50 (permalink)
Whilst I was overjoyed to see Obama elected and such a convincing end to eight years of unbelievable stupidity, the proof will lie in the pudding.

Will he overturn or re-write Patriot Act I and II, the John Warner defense authorisation act, the FISA stuff? If he tries, he probably stands a good chance of getting shot. If he doesn't, then for all the wonderful talk of change he will only ever be the latest embodiment of the false left-right paradigm foisted upon us globally to make us believe we actually have a choice that can be exercised.

So said, I hope somewhere, somehow MLK can see this happening.

Q.
post edited by Qwerty69 - 2008/11/07 05:47:10
#38
AJ_0000
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RE: History 2008/11/07 05:46:46 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: ducatibruce2

On the other hand, seeing the way the entire media and entertainment industry unified into a propaganda juggernaut to put him into office is deeply disturbing to me as someone who values individual liberty, free thought, and freedom of expression. Orwell is rolling in his grave.


But they are the same people who were so keen on the march into Iraq too - without getting into the rights or wrongs of going into Iraq, it didnt turn out to be anything like the government or media predictions/gameplan did it?

Edit to add: they predicted a cakewalk didnt they <--- futile attempt to be somewhat on topic for Sonar forum


There is a difference. The nation was attacked, and it was a wartime situation. It was a general sense of patriotism and support for the country. In some ways it was in spite of Bush, not because of him. This is all about one man, and one political party. It's a cult of personality. He doesn't have supporters, he has worshipers.
#39
AJ_0000
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RE: History 2008/11/07 05:51:37 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Qwerty69


Will he overturn or re-write Patriot Act I and II, the John Warner defense authorisation act, the FISA stuff? If he tries, he probably stands a good chance of getting shot.


That's the dumbest thing I've ever read.
#40
ducatibruce2
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RE: History 2008/11/07 05:52:29 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: AJ_0000


ORIGINAL: ducatibruce2

On the other hand, seeing the way the entire media and entertainment industry unified into a propaganda juggernaut to put him into office is deeply disturbing to me as someone who values individual liberty, free thought, and freedom of expression. Orwell is rolling in his grave.


But they are the same people who were so keen on the march into Iraq too - without getting into the rights or wrongs of going into Iraq, it didnt turn out to be anything like the government or media predictions/gameplan did it?

Edit to add: they predicted a cakewalk didnt they <--- futile attempt to be somewhat on topic for Sonar forum


There is a difference. The nation was attacked, and it was a wartime situation. It was a general sense of patriotism and support for the country. In some ways it was in spite of Bush, not because of him. This is all about one man, and one political party. It's a cult of personality. He doesn't have supporters, he has worshipers.


Oooh well, getting into the right or wrong of Iraq then - Iraq attacked the USA exactly when?

Edit - I retract that - this is not the place for this discussion
post edited by ducatibruce2 - 2008/11/07 05:57:08

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#41
jinga8
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RE: History 2008/11/07 06:28:23 (permalink)


quote:

And again people let petty human beliefs drive their fingers on the keyboard...nifty guys...real nifty...R-E-S-P-E-C-T find out that it means R-E-S-T-R-A-I-N-T and oh, nevermind, everyone has to put in their 2 cents/views/way of seeing things...c-a-n-'-t-h-e-l-p-i-t....

Why is it so hard for people to not spew political ire? Keep on keepin' on/truckin' daddio/good buddy....
#42
Qwerty69
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RE: History 2008/11/07 06:40:31 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: AJ_0000


ORIGINAL: Qwerty69


Will he overturn or re-write Patriot Act I and II, the John Warner defense authorisation act, the FISA stuff? If he tries, he probably stands a good chance of getting shot.


That's the dumbest thing I've ever read.


Then you need to expand your horizons. Start with some of your own posts.

Q.
#43
Tom F
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RE: History 2008/11/07 06:50:35 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Milt

I guess that all you folks that are feeling so warm and gushy over the victory of a Marxist thug are gonna be the first to send your hard earned money to him so he can give it to people who he thinks deserves it more than you do!



and the oscar for moronism and political uniformation goes to......YOU

btw: why do you use words if you do not understand their meaning?

have you ever read a single line about what marxism is? saying obama is a marxist is a intelligent as saying he is a member of the kkk

obama has "slight" socialist tendencies (still he would be regarded as a right socialist in europe for instance)
pretty sad that i seem to know so much more than you about YOUR president - hopefully you didnt vote at all

...trying to be polite... quick temper...trying to be...
#44
Legion
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RE: History 2008/11/07 07:33:07 (permalink)
Marxism 101=
1. There is a conflict between ownership and production. The owner want more profit (who wouldn't?), the workers (proletariat) wants the fruit of their labour (who wouldn't?). Hence, differentiating class interests.
2. In working as a part of production raher than producing for their own needs workers become part of the machinery and as this alianated.
3. All social relations in capitalism subordinates to that of the free market making all social relations part of the same machinery. People are judge depending on class, employment, wealth etc and also everything a person does has in some way relations to the market system wich engulfs everything.
4. The market is not democratic wich means democracy under capitalism always will subordinate to the market forces and cannot expand more than the market allows it.
5. (The foundation): Subjective materialism. Ideas are not the driving force in the world but material situations. Those situations then let humans create ideas out of necessity (ot maybe just spite ) wich again alters the material situations. (As in the feodal system letting the market raise to power until it needed to expand the borders (paradigm) of the feodal economy with the capitalist revolutions embedding for a new economic and political landscape and new ideologies to emerge). All hisory has been the history of different class struggles and clashes evolving to the society of today and still evolving under the struggle between capital and proletariat. (also, this can in some interpretaions lead to good and evel beeing subjevtive wich by some can be seen as godless. For example are taxes good or evil? The person being taxed most likely would say evil, on the other hand the person reaping the benefit he would not be able to afford otherwise, like school or hospital treatment, most likely will say good. If taxes in another hand goes to corporations as support they, and their shareholders, will think the taxes are good but if the taxes were to be taken as income tax the employes most likely would think the taxes were bad).

People can agree or disagree on these marxist "truths" but, very simplified, that is what marxism (according to Marx) is.

Socialism 101=
Socialism:
1. The state ownership between the revolution and the implementation of communism, state capitalism.
2. An ideology striving for (1)

Communism 101=
Communism:
1. A society without state or classes (ie not as in the USSR even though they claimed to be).
2. An ideology striving for (1)

Anyhow,
If people in the states think Obama is a marxist and then take a look at present day russia wich is pretty much hypercapitalism will todays democrats tell todays republicans to go back to Russia?

Also... (sorry I'm writing so much)
I think one danger might be if everybody is happy and content now and see Obama as a messiah due to his excelent rethoric and thus stop thinking for themselves. I think W Bush accomplished one great thing and that was to (although maybe not willingly) initiate a big political debate in the US as well as around the world and in this breaking a consensus of just accepting the status quo. My hope is that this debate continues and don't die out now that many (espacially the rest of the world so we'll have to count on you americans) seem so confident in that Obama will change the world.
post edited by Legion - 2008/11/07 07:59:05

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#45
ducatibruce2
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RE: History 2008/11/07 07:52:53 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: AJ_0000


ORIGINAL: ducatibruce2

On the other hand, seeing the way the entire media and entertainment industry unified into a propaganda juggernaut to put him into office is deeply disturbing to me as someone who values individual liberty, free thought, and freedom of expression. Orwell is rolling in his grave.


But they are the same people who were so keen on the march into Iraq too - without getting into the rights or wrongs of going into Iraq, it didnt turn out to be anything like the government or media predictions/gameplan did it?

Edit to add: they predicted a cakewalk didnt they <--- futile attempt to be somewhat on topic for Sonar forum


There is a difference. The nation was attacked, and it was a wartime situation. It was a general sense of patriotism and support for the country. In some ways it was in spite of Bush, not because of him. This is all about one man, and one political party. It's a cult of personality. He doesn't have supporters, he has worshipers.



So, what I should have said above is -
The members of the armed services (in my country at least & I assume yours) dont have the right of debate or disent about their orders. They rely on the rest of us, including the media, to keep the goverment honest & ask the questions - "why are we doing this?, how much is it going to hurt?, once we get into it how do we get out of it? & are you really, really sure of the facts you've told us?". That really didnt happen pre Iraq.

I would argue that the coverage pre Iraq was also all about one man & was a cult of personality - the man was Saddam & the personality sucked heinously. He even had a stereotypical bad guy twirlable moustache.

IMO the media is becoming ever more populist and they actively seek to have a popular stance with the wider audience. There's a common comment that with the advent of so much media & the internet we're better informed. I dont agree, because there's so much media/information I think we tend to only look at what we agree with. Very few of us will actively go looking for stuff we dont agree with. Therefore, the more traditional media has to be more popular/agreeable & upset fewer people to maintain its market share.

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#46
Spaceduck
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RE: History 2008/11/07 08:08:12 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Legion
I think W Bush accomplished one great thing and that was to (although maybe not willingly) initiate a big political debate in the US as well as around the world and in this breaking a consensus of just accepting the status quo. My hope is that this debate continues


I agree with that. I know so many people--very intelligent, professional, productive members of society--who never cared about politics until this election. Suddenly minds are lighting up.

The downside is, here in the USA, it's not really a "political debate" as you would hope but rather a "political brawl" with people using sociopolitical words as insults (not even knowing what they really mean). There's nothing inherently evil about the words "communism", "socialism" or "liberal"; yet the Fox News channel throws them around like "terrorist", "traitor" and "@$$ho1e". And some people eat it up.

I guess the McCarthy era dies hard.

I'd like to live in a society where you can go to the library, check out "Das Kapital" (or conversely, "Machiavelli's The Prince") and not ruin your chances of ever holding political office.

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#47
Legion
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RE: History 2008/11/07 08:15:44 (permalink)
I've read both (Not the whole Das Kapital though it's to long... I read "The Communist Manifesto" and "The German Ideology" instead.) I've read Mussolini, Hitler, Malthus, Clausewitz, Kropotkin, Nechaev (now that I think would be controversial in the states it's almost controversial here in liberal Sweden), Nietzsche, Voltaire and some Smith and Durkheim as well. Seems I might not be able to run for president now

Oh, I've read the Bible to and the Quaran (but not in arabic thoug...) as well.
post edited by Legion - 2008/11/07 08:22:02

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#48
Spaceduck
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RE: History 2008/11/07 08:27:46 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Legion

I've read both (Not the whole Das Kapital though it's to long... I read "The Communist Manifesto" and "The German Ideology" instead.) I've read Mussolini, Hitler, Malthus, Clausewitz, Kropotkin, Nechaev (now that I think would be controversial in the states it's almost controversial here in liberal Sweden), Nietzsche, Voltaire and some Smith and Durkheim as well. Seems I might not be able to run for president now


To me, that exposure makes you far more qualified than any candidate I've seen in my lifetime. Unfortunately I'd be your only vote. And I'd get boiled in oil for supporting you
post edited by Spaceduck - 2008/11/07 08:28:09

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#49
jinga8
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RE: History 2008/11/07 08:33:55 (permalink)
and the Quaran (but not in arabic thoug...)

Puh...lame*$$...

Why do people keep saying things? Do what you want. Believe what you want. Great. But why say you are right and others are wrong? I just don't get it... (this second part is NOT directed at Legion, but at everyone) (Oh, the first part was directed at Legion, but only as a joke, of course)...the fact that I have to explain that is so stupid...
#50
Legion
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RE: History 2008/11/07 08:34:07 (permalink)
Speceduck: Ha ha ha, don't support me just because I've read a lot I might be crazy and/or have misinterpreted everything anyway

Jinga: I agree. I think people are almost always right (if it's not a case of pure facts) even if they have totally contradicting opinions because they are right according to their own wants and needs. That don't mean I will agree with them though, I most likely will think thety are wrong and that I am right
post edited by Legion - 2008/11/07 08:39:30

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#51
Spaceduck
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RE: History 2008/11/07 08:39:01 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Legion

Ha ha ha, don't support me just because I've read a lot I might be crazy and/or have misinterpreted everything anyway

Haha, well it never hurts to study.

Best scene in Patton where Gen. Patton (George C. Scott) predicts the German troops' strategy and yells, "Rommel, you SOB. I read your book!!!"

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#52
DaneStewart
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RE: History 2008/11/07 11:06:29 (permalink)
What's all this bashing of MARXISTS??????

I am a Marxist.
So are a lot of my best friends.
We LOVE the Marx Brothers! Groucho, Harpo, Chico...and who can possibly have a problem with that clever Zeppo?

Sheesh...

To thine own self be true. ~TheDane
#53
Stevvy McMantooth
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RE: History 2008/11/07 11:15:30 (permalink)
I am a Stevvist myself



That's BullSh%T Stevvy... and you know it!




stevvy - pronounced (St) + (hěv'ē) st-heavy
#54
kidzgolf
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RE: History 2008/11/07 11:27:42 (permalink)
Years ago I set up a little studio in my home - U20, R8, Rack D550, RD300, patch bay, midiquest32, Barbetta bi-amp speakers, MasterTracks Pro - by the way: Whatever happened to MasterTracks Pro? It used to be a preferred software, at least so I thought. They even developed a program called Encore which I believe was similar to Finale. I hired a consultant to stop by the house each week and clue me in on wiring, midi, patchbay, program changes, etc. I had transcribed scores of some Steely Dan material and started to work. There was a Great Awakening in the process - less is more. The right note in the right spot. Just a little history I guess.
#55
LLyons
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RE: History 2008/11/07 16:09:24 (permalink)
For your post topic - it is very good to see old barriers are leaving us, and while not completely eliminated, do not thwart those who would work hard, study hard and strive to become a leader of these United States. However - only by his actions will I for one know that he is a good man and a man of his word. I am a republican and pray that he has a very successful tenure, because in part, I beleive he will embrace and work with both parties. Time and history has proven we are only successfull as a nation if we are all energized together. Besides, my dad would kick my purdel all over this country if I didn't respect the office of the president :o)

Best Regards,

L

post edited by LLyons - 2008/11/07 16:20:21
#56
AT
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RE: History 2008/11/07 18:01:00 (permalink)
Re: the media

journalism is what they stick between the ads for toilet paper and feminine hygiene products. And I can say that as a "journalist."

A recent example: for 3-4 years we've been hearing/reading about the housing boom and how it would burst. It busrts, and all we hear about is how could it happen? Kinda like a reverse Cassandra. What they really need for the press is a rating system. When some expert or commentator comes on they need to give his batting average in a crawl or box; ie. "this expert has been right on 1 of the 12 predicitions he's made, so keep that in mind, folks, when he gives his opinion." Like what they say about economists .... they've predicted 100 of the last 10 recessions.

https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome
http://www.bnoir-film.com/  
 
there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
#57
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