Volume vs. velocity

Isn't that how keyboards work? If you want to bring out a note, you strike the keyboard harder?

How about another midi track with just the notes you want louder? Double the outputs and you double the volume. A little out of the box but I bet it would work.

Janet.

That is right! You want to raise the relative volumes of the notes by using velocities. It becomes a problem if you blanket apply an increased velocity to a whole track or area that you lose the dynamics.

With midi you have 127 velocity levels so if you raise the volume of the whole track by using an increased velocity of say +40 ( ) every note on the track over a velocity of 87 then becomes the maximum of 127 so you've effectively squashed all those notes up against the ceiling, and also the very quietest note becomes at least +40.

Changing the relative values in a piece IS the way to go, higher numbers for accents up to a maximum of 127 being the hardest hit (loudest) note. Then when you have the dynamics of your piece worked out its easy to turn up your piano, drum kit or whatever as a whole using a volume control keeping ALL the the relative space between the softest and hardest hits. So adjust your velocities this way but bear this in mind if you apply an increased velocity to the whole track.

The problem that Gary was discussing in the other thread has to do with velocity layered samples as very often these are stepped within midi's 127 velocity levels range so you'll only have 16 or 24 samples say representing the full range and sometimes you will hear those 'steps' as the individual samples are triggered through the range, there are ways of mitigating that particular problem......but that is another issue.

ORIGINAL: Spaceduck

The problem with changing velocities is that it often changes the sample which can sound drastically different. For example, a piano note at velocity 30 will have a mellow, singing effect. If you boost it even a few points to 40, it'll switch to a harder sample with more of a twang. If you're playing Beethoven's "Moonlight", and later you decide to boost the volume by scaling up the velocity, it'll sound like a train wreck!

Exactly

Maybe a quicker way to accomplish it with in a single PRV view would be to :

#1 make sure that all notes on the original track are assigned the same midi channel number ( I mean the individual notes not just the track assignment.) For example channel 1.

#2 assign the same patch to another channel : example channel 2. Set the volume higher on channel 2's patch.

As you decide which notes you want to offset volume wise, just right click the note in PRV and assign it to channel 2.

On a real piano, volume IS largely controlled by velocity. On a $100,000 piano, the range is truly amazing, exceeding the dynamic range of any other instrument. But most of us don't have a $100,000 piano. We have a synth or a sampler.

Here's the basic problem with the relationship between velocity and volume on a synth: a sampled piano has a limited number of velocity layers, and you can often hear the jump from one to the next even when two adjacent notes are only 1 digit apart, velocity-wise. The result is a sound that isn't what you intended.

I find that I often go into the PRV and back velocities down, and/or set a maximum level (based on the crossover to the next velocity layer), or use a CAL script to act like a compressor to limit the velocity range. Not because I'm trying to limit dynamics, but because I'm trying to avoid bouncing from one sample set to another.

Of course, that messes with the volume, so I then commit the MIDI to audio and use a volume envelope to restore some of the volume dynamics. The point is to intentionally break the connection between velocity and volume to overcome the limitations of a sampler.

Another trick is to alter the velocity curve of the synth/sampler itself. Most samplers let you do this. You can adjust it to basically act like a compressor, restricting the range of MIDI velocities.

None of these approaches answers your question about how to raise the volume of one note in a chord. Frankly I know of no easy way to do that. You can modify the mapping in a sampler, but that's only going to give you control over individual zones - and it's going to get complicated real quick.

You could also split the MIDI track into 2 or more tracks, allowing separate processing on each. I often split my piano track into two parts so I can treat left and right hand parts separately. But that may be too crude for what you're trying to do.

Sorry I made you read all that and never actually answered your question. Just thinking out loud, I guess.

That's an interesting strategy (by kblackwell). But I think midi event "volume" does nothing more than boost the velocity, which leads us back to the same problem

However, if this is a solo piano piece like you said (i.e. your sampler isn't doing anything else), that makes things easy! Just go to the audio track for your sampler and create a volume envelope. Then you can boost or limit the volume as necessary without affecting midi velocity. Or if you're real lazy, just throw a massive compressor on the whole track

ORIGINAL: R!Soc

ORIGINAL: Spaceduck
But I think midi event "volume" does nothing more than boost the velocity, which leads us back to the same problem

I'm not sure that is correct. Note velocity and CC7 are two separate things in Midi. Wouldn't volume scale the db output of the sound generator, while velocity determines how the sound is formed?

It would be no different than listening to a very agressive and distorted electrical guitar recording at a low volume. Just because it's at a low volume doesn't mean it was played softly.

Are they really? If so, that would be fantastic. I don't work much with midi so I really don't know. But I hope you're right because it would solve my problems too.

velocity and volume are not the same thing...that is, as long as the synth/sampler treats them CORRECTLY per the MIDI standard.

ORIGINAL: R!Soc

ORIGINAL: Spaceduck
Are they really? If so, that would be fantastic. I don't work much with midi so I really don't know. But I hope you're right because it would solve my problems too.

I'm pretty sure. At least, that's how every MIDI instrument I've used in the last 20 years has behaved. Although as Beagle points out, it depends on if the MIDI standard was followed correctly.

Considering how relatively simple it is to create a VSTi (compared to a hardware MIDI synth), anything is possible.

I am sure.

Velocity and volume are different things. Velocity curves modulate tonality and amplitude, which is often interpreted as volume, but that is only part of the picture and is actually illusory.

While volume envelopes can achieve part of the goal, the proper way to fix the problem is to adjust the velocity on a per note basis. This information is contained within the midi note packet.

Velocity (how hard you strike a key) is, as mentioned, digitized (sampled) so is not infinite like a real piano. Problems can arise with some instruments when velocity samples are few and steps are large (like in my Concerto of recent release, where a few notes are choked due to velocity sample error).

Cheers
Shad