Perception

Author
Mike Fisher
Max Output Level: -63 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 1374
  • Joined: 2003/11/05 16:49:04
  • Location: Indianapolis, IN
  • Status: offline
2009/01/07 22:56:53 (permalink)

Perception

Here's a link to an interesting experiment in perception. This is an article from washingtonpost.com which includes video asking / showing..."Can one of the nation's great musicians cut through the fog of a D.C. rush hour? Let's find out."

#1

22 Replies Related Threads

    bitflipper
    01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
    • Total Posts : 26036
    • Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
    • Location: Everett, WA USA
    • Status: offline
    RE: Perception 2009/01/08 00:09:54 (permalink)
    I'd like to see them stage that experiment in a more musically-minded location such as Nashville, Austin, Chicago, New Orleans, San Fransisco or Seattle.

    Here in Seattle, street musicians abound - at least in good weather - and often draw a crowd. They range from the truly awful to the truly awesome, but all get money in the case.

    In most cities on the east coast, you could be laying there bleeding and no one would take notice.


    All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

    My Stuff
    #2
    Mike Fisher
    Max Output Level: -63 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 1374
    • Joined: 2003/11/05 16:49:04
    • Location: Indianapolis, IN
    • Status: offline
    RE: Perception 2009/01/08 09:16:54 (permalink)

    I agree...location is a factor. In other cities/locations I've watched crowds gather around obviously bad musicians or at least acknowledge their presence as they go by.


    ORIGINAL: bitflipper
    In most cities on the east coast, you could be laying there bleeding and no one would take notice.


    Sad, but true.

    #3
    Nate
    Max Output Level: -76 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 726
    • Joined: 2003/11/09 03:56:02
    • Location: North Carolina
    • Status: offline
    RE: Perception 2009/01/08 10:02:08 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: Mike Fisher
    Here's a link to an interesting experiment in perception. This is an article from washingtonpost.com which includes video asking / showing..."Can one of the nation's great musicians cut through the fog of a D.C. rush hour? Let's find out."


    Celebrity is not as recognized as people are led to believe. If people don't have the trappings all around them, you know big entourage, lots of secuirty types...it's very hard to recognize them.
    As for the quality of playing...the world class violinist playing at 7:30am on a work day...I could of told them without the expieriment that very few people want to deal with street musicians at that
    time of day...especially on their way to work.

    The quality of the playing, the music being played, or even the musician themself are relatively low on the thought priority list. And honestly if you are heading in to work and have only a 10 minute window which you are going to use to have a cuppa coffee and a danish...would you really stop and listen to some street guy? It appears that most people wouldn't and/or don't have time to listen.

    #4
    The Maillard Reaction
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 31918
    • Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
    • Status: offline
    RE: Perception 2009/01/08 10:19:32 (permalink)
    I was on Washington Circle in D.C. last year.

    There was a 7 piece horn outfit doing a New Orleans meets Baltimore type thing on the sidewalk.

    Most fun I had listening to music all last year.

    Me and two hundred strangers singing along to old standards. The crowd seemed to be right at the precipice of spontaneous dance. I guess D.C. is still a bit conservative... so we all settled for head bobs and foot tapping.

    What a great memory. Thanks!

    best regards,
    mike



    #5
    donhearl
    Max Output Level: -83 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 380
    • Joined: 2005/08/09 14:28:01
    • Location: Nashville
    • Status: offline
    RE: Perception 2009/01/08 10:20:36 (permalink)
    Yeah. People run up the escalators in the Metro system, no time for stopping!

    If he had set-up on Broadway in Nashville, the crowds probably would have asked for "fiddle tunes" :-) "Whiskey Before Breakfast" is a good'un.

    d

    #6
    space_cowboy
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 9813
    • Joined: 2007/07/20 14:49:31
    • Location: Front and center behind these monitors
    • Status: offline
    RE: Perception 2009/01/08 10:42:22 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: bitflipper

    I'd like to see them stage that experiment in a more musically-minded location such as Nashville, Austin, Chicago, New Orleans, San Fransisco or Seattle.

    Here in Seattle, street musicians abound - at least in good weather - and often draw a crowd. They range from the truly awful to the truly awesome, but all get money in the case.

    In most cities on the east coast, you could be laying there bleeding and no one would take notice.

    Yeah
    but in most cities on the east coast, someone laying on the street bleeding is a common sight for the average pedestrian.

    Some people call me Maurice
     
    SPLAT Pro lifetime, ADK 6 core 3.6Ghz with 32 GB RAM, SSD 1TB system drive, 3 3TB regular drives for samples, recordings and misc.  Behringer X Touch, UAD Apollo Quad.  2 UAD2 Quads PCI (i think - inside the box whatever that is), Console 1.  More guitars (40??) and synths (hard and soft) than talent.  Zendrum!!!
    #7
    Spaceduck
    Max Output Level: -50.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 2499
    • Joined: 2004/12/29 12:51:03
    • Status: offline
    RE: Perception 2009/01/08 11:09:03 (permalink)
    Wow, interesting stuff. But halfway through the article I started to resent the way the author is trying to colour our perception by taking such a biased angle. The article assumes that Joshua Bell, Stradivarius, Bach and classical music should be the most important things in the world at that moment. How presumptuous!

    I'm actually relieved to see that these 1000 government workers remained focused on getting to their jobs on time. Can you imagine the alternative? Our taxpayer dollars paying for their 1 hour "music break"?

    Second, I disagree with another bias the article takes by saying "We'll go with Kant, because he's obviously right." (Wish they'da told me that before I wasted all those semesters studying the philosophers who were "wrong"). So the article assumes that there is such thing as absolute beauty at the root of it all. I'm not convinced. I'm more in the David Hume camp where "beauty is in the eye of the beholder".

    Basically if Joshua Bell failed to connect with his audience, that's his fault. I can't stand prima donnas who play an unsuccessful show and blame the audience. As an expert in unsuccessful shows, I've learned to accept my own faults and never blame the audience.

    In this case, Joshua Bell failed to understand his environment and so he failed as a performer, even if he got all the notes right. He was assuming he's in Carnegie Hall, playing for people who were there to dote on his every move, when in fact being a street performer is very different and requires an instinct for showmanship. Again, how presumptuous to think a Carnegie Hall player has what it takes.

    I was once in--I dunno, some subway station--and I saw some kid set up a bunch of cardboard boxes and start wailing away like it was a drum kit. He had showmanship! That kid drew a huge crowd, and he deserved it. Again, a good performer communicates with the audience and knows what they want to hear. I hope JB learns from this experience and improves his audience skills instead of blaming it on the people.


    Spaceduck music [HERE]
    Spaceduck videos [HERE]
    #8
    Guitarhacker
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 24398
    • Joined: 2007/12/07 12:51:18
    • Location: NC
    • Status: offline
    RE: Perception 2009/01/08 11:13:23 (permalink)
    This story reminded me of some clubs I've played in.

    But the truth is.... many people could care less about the arts.

    So sad, not to appreciate even for a moment such superb musicianship.

    I wonder, If I'd been in that train station that morning.... what would I have done?

    I like to think that I would have stopped and listened.

    My website & music: www.herbhartley.com

    MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW   
    Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface


    BMI/NSAI

    "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer 
    #9
    Nate
    Max Output Level: -76 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 726
    • Joined: 2003/11/09 03:56:02
    • Location: North Carolina
    • Status: offline
    RE: Perception 2009/01/08 11:18:23 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: Spaceduck
    I started to resent the way the author is trying to colour our perception by taking such a biased angle.


    Me too.

    In this case, Joshua Bell failed to understand his environment and so he failed as a performer, even if he got all the notes right. He was assuming he's in Carnegie Hall, playing for people who were there to dote on his every move, when in fact being a street performer is very different and requires an instinct for showmanship. Again, how presumptuous to think a Carnegie Hall player has what it takes.


    The act of placing Bell in a Subway station was an expieriment in what people want to percieve. Bell was not displaying his ego IMO. He was just the crash test dummy to perform the test.
    But I do refer back to your first statement...the author went way off track in both purpose and execution of his 'expieriment.


    #10
    Spaceduck
    Max Output Level: -50.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 2499
    • Joined: 2004/12/29 12:51:03
    • Status: offline
    RE: Perception 2009/01/08 11:40:13 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: Nate


    ORIGINAL: Spaceduck
    I started to resent the way the author is trying to colour our perception by taking such a biased angle.


    Me too.

    In this case, Joshua Bell failed to understand his environment and so he failed as a performer, even if he got all the notes right. He was assuming he's in Carnegie Hall, playing for people who were there to dote on his every move, when in fact being a street performer is very different and requires an instinct for showmanship. Again, how presumptuous to think a Carnegie Hall player has what it takes.


    The act of placing Bell in a Subway station was an expieriment in what people want to percieve. Bell was not displaying his ego IMO. He was just the crash test dummy to perform the test.
    But I do refer back to your first statement...the author went way off track in both purpose and execution of his 'expieriment.



    Yup, that's true... and I stand corrected; Joshua Bell never actually blamed the audience. It's the author who does that. JB seems like a very humble person as we see when he insists that the author not use the word "genius" (to which the author feigns acceptance but then says "The word will not again appear in this article. It would be breaking no rules, however, to note that the term in question, particularly as applied in the field of music, refers to a congenital brilliance -- an elite, innate, preternatural ability that manifests itself early, and often in dramatic fashion."

    Oh jeepers, just say "genius" already.

    So yeah you're absolutely right. This was a great experiment but not in absolute perception as the author hammers, but in relative perception based on what people want to hear. The experiment proves that people focus on different things based on their surroundings, and the best violinist in the world can't change that fact.

    Spaceduck music [HERE]
    Spaceduck videos [HERE]
    #11
    lazarous
    Max Output Level: -61 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 1461
    • Joined: 2005/09/15 11:55:42
    • Location: Minneapolis, MN
    • Status: offline
    RE: Perception 2009/01/08 11:44:49 (permalink)
    I think the timing of the experiment is suspect as well. In my experience, busking rarely proves beneficial as people are starting their day. Had he been there during the "going home" rush hour, or over lunch, he may have done dramatically better.

    I agree about the writer's bias.

    Corey

    Ath 64 3500+
    MSI K8N N2 Plat ATX 939 Mobo
    2Gb DDR2 400
    RME Hammerfall HDSP 9652
    UAD1 4.2
    WinXP Pro SP2
    Sonar 8.3PE
    New Henry and Buster episodes available!
    #12
    The Maillard Reaction
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 31918
    • Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
    • Status: offline
    RE: Perception 2009/01/08 20:14:18 (permalink)
    I agree the writer left the chute with the story pre written.

    He should have gone up to Washington Circle where the guys were playing popular music... I suspect because it's popular... he could have written a story with a nice ending.


    #13
    Fog
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 12302
    • Joined: 2008/02/27 21:53:35
    • Location: UK
    • Status: offline
    RE: Perception 2009/01/08 20:38:13 (permalink)
    there is a time and place for things.. if you want to hear people perform in the street, Covent garden in London etc is good to go...

    if you are on your way to / from work.. most of the time you just want to get to your destination...

    and I categorically deny I've been to any part of the US , so that articles wrong for a start
    #14
    Mike Fisher
    Max Output Level: -63 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 1374
    • Joined: 2003/11/05 16:49:04
    • Location: Indianapolis, IN
    • Status: offline
    RE: Perception 2009/01/08 22:50:15 (permalink)
    Although the writer's point of view is skewed from the start, I still get from the story how easy it is for us to overlook some of the great things in life that are right there in front of us.
    #15
    The Maillard Reaction
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 31918
    • Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
    • Status: offline
    RE: Perception 2009/01/09 07:20:52 (permalink)
    Mike, what's your take on one person (the writer) defining what's great?

    I thought the twisted logic idea that the songs had merit simply because they weren't popular but were still part of a specialists repertoire was a stretch. Something about the music having gone the distance? No one ever threw out the charts... so it must be good?

    It basically started with the premise that they were enlightened choices... regardless of the fact that they had 100-200 years to be interpreted (pardon the pun) as performance hall favorites... but instead they were obscure tunes appreciated by a cognoscenti. I don't take exception to the tunes... but IMO the experiment was BAD science.

    A better experiment would have been to stop people and ask them what they were listening to on their Ipod... perhaps some obscure work by an old master?

    Another D.C. busker I enjoyed on my last visit was an older Asian man playing a stringed gourd instrument with a bow by the Mall. He had a backing track on a small boom box. The music caught my attention well before I could view who was playing. It was very nice stuff.

    best,
    mike


    #16
    Mike Fisher
    Max Output Level: -63 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 1374
    • Joined: 2003/11/05 16:49:04
    • Location: Indianapolis, IN
    • Status: offline
    RE: Perception 2009/01/09 08:36:54 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: mike_mccue
    Mike, what's your take on one person (the writer) defining what's great?


    I interpreted his references of 'great' to mean a musician who obviously knows his craft and not one who necessarily is 'great' by popularity / celebrity. Still, 'beauty is in the eye of the beholder'.

    'Great' by one definition is simply, very skillful. It's all interpretational.

    The writer presumes that all passersby should perceive Joshua Bell as 'great' (very skillful). Still, out of character and outside of the 'normal' atmosphere for Joshua to perform in, this 'greatness' is not obviously perceived. It is possible, though, that those passing by may have recognized his playing to be great; but, like hearing a favorite song on the sound system in a department store, only in passing thought, 'hey...that's a great song'.



    I thought the twisted logic idea that the songs had merit simply because they weren't popular but were still part of a specialists repertoire was a stretch. Something about the music having gone the distance? No one ever threw out the charts... so it must be good?


    Familiarity of the music to the people passing by would have helped gain attention. I improvise on the piano all the time. But while many people say they enjoy my music, it doesn't get as much attention as when I play, "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star" or "Don't Let The Sun Go Down On Me".



    Another D.C. busker I enjoyed on my last visit was an older Asian man playing a stringed gourd instrument with a bow by the Mall. He had a backing track on a small boom box. The music caught my attention well before I could view who was playing. It was very nice stuff.


    I am still blown away by some of the street drummers I've heard playing 5-gallon plastic buckets!
    post edited by Mike Fisher - 2009/01/09 15:59:07
    #17
    The Maillard Reaction
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 31918
    • Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
    • Status: offline
    RE: Perception 2009/01/09 09:03:53 (permalink)

    I forgot to say thanks for the link.

    Good food for thought!

    best regards,
    mike


    #18
    mcourter
    Max Output Level: -41 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 3442
    • Joined: 2006/02/27 16:57:11
    • Location: Los Angeles area
    • Status: offline
    RE: Perception 2009/01/09 12:41:13 (permalink)
    On the other hand, if it were Madonna or Britney or Christina or Bono or John Mayer or Paris Hilton.............in other words a real CELEBRITY in modern parlance, I imagine the crowd would have noticed. Bell is best known in smaller circles.

    I have a great memory of New Orleans. In the French Quarter I've seen a band set up in the street, after which the police blockaded the street to prevent traffic from interfering with the musicians. According to the local denizens, this was a common occurence. I met a young gal in Lafayette Park playing Frank Zappa on acoustic. Of course this was 1973, it may have changed since then.

    A few guitars, a couple of basses, a MIDI controller, a mandolin, a banjo, a mic, PodFarm2
    Unbridled Enthusiasm
     My music: www.Soundclick.com/markcourter
    #19
    Mike Fisher
    Max Output Level: -63 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 1374
    • Joined: 2003/11/05 16:49:04
    • Location: Indianapolis, IN
    • Status: offline
    RE: Perception 2009/01/09 16:06:34 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: mcourter
    On the other hand, if it were Madonna or Britney or Christina or Bono or John Mayer or Paris Hilton.............


    I remember going through the airport in the 80's and seeing Billy Joel and his supermodel wife (pregnant at the time) and nobody really paid them any attention. Of course he wasn't singing or playing piano, she wasn't modeling...and it was LAX.

    'Out of character' and 'out of place' is definitely a factor.

    Anyhow, thanks for the comments everyone. I'm going to try to be a little more observant from now on. I don't want to miss anything.
    #20
    No How
    Max Output Level: -23.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 5180
    • Joined: 2006/05/02 11:56:01
    • Location: the boogie-woogie Isles
    • Status: offline
    RE: Perception 2009/01/09 16:15:29 (permalink)
    Yeah....what he said!

    s o n g s

      – Beauty lodged in a bad hotel has no value.  Raymond Lull
    #21
    makinson1
    Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 9
    • Joined: 2009/01/09 11:40:38
    • Status: offline
    RE: Perception 2009/01/09 23:00:38 (permalink)
    At risk of being labeled a sabateur (some one who throws their shoe: a felony in Iraq) I would like to to say something in defense of live music. That the people who make our laws should pass by a free Josua Bell performance should not suprise us. We just feel sheepish and guilty because we elected them. By comparison, in New York the subway is entertained by free musicians and students from Julliard. And New Yorkers appreciate it. I read that Bell was playing Kreisler's violin. That's like getting to drive Enzo Ferrari's personal Ferrari. We should be eternally gratefull we live in a world where you guys can write, perform, and record pristine music that I can download from iTunes, Put it on an iPod, and then dump it onto the 40Gig HD in my car. I have recordings of Kriesler. The recording quality is below bad. Recording from back then sound like they were intensionally encrypted with random noise. But the performance! If you are not weeping by the end of the Katchiturian Concerto you should not be allowed to be alone with small children.

    But what do we do? I mean the average American? My closest relatives are astounded that I listen to music. I mean do nothing but listen to music. How many people go to the local orchestra even when the city gives away the tickets? How much is the local school board's budget for Music Education?

    And if you are a musician? Consider yourself broad-minded? Have you favorite genre. Play hard rock? How much country do you listen to? Play country? How much hip-hop do you listen to? Play Urban Dance Music? How much classic R&B do you listen to.
    But I wax prolix once again. Gotta go. The voices are calling me back, and the moon rises full. So much blood. So little time.
    #22
    thegeek
    Max Output Level: -78 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 631
    • Joined: 2008/10/02 14:28:00
    • Location: Athens,Greece
    • Status: offline
    RE: Perception 2009/01/11 11:15:47 (permalink)
    With all honesty there is another parameter that the writer fails to mention!
    Even if people were NOT in a hurry,even if it was NOT just another metro performer begging for money for them..........

    How many everyday people can actually - and honestly- judge a violin player's performance and skills?Even so,how many have developed the ability to be "seduced" by such music and instruments?
    What Im trying to say is,yeah if you dont have a slightest clue about classical music,but somehow find yourself seated in a concert hall and you re told that the violin player who performs on stage is one of the greatest in our times,even if you only are there just because you want to "show" to your friends that you appreciate quality music,when the performer ends and all the hall is standing up and applauding Im sure when asked you ll just answer:"It was a brilliant a performer,this guy has skills".But did you really have a clue?Were you "seduced" by the performance?How many people can actually TELL a good violin performance from a bad one?

    Again being totally honest,I have totally no classical music education at all,and taking piano performance as an exception (which I really adore as an instrument) If those videos didnt have a description obviously I also wouldnt have guessed that the guy playing is an internationally known performer,and I wouldnt have been drawn by his "magical" performance as Im really not drawn by the violin as an instrument-as opposed to piano!Ill be even honest to say that even now that I know I still cannot "see" the special skills in these small videos- but again I cant blame being in rush,or in the subway,Im at the comfort of my home on a relaxed sunday afternoon!

    The way I see it,lack of pre-informed (concert hall example above) hypocritisism (did I spell that right?),musical experience and above all musical education are the very first reasons not so many people responded!


    With these thoughts taken in mind it absolutely makes sense that one guy who stoped to listen,wanted to be a violin player himself in his youth and had taken classical music lessons and the woman that did was because she knew he is "somebody"!
    post edited by thegeek - 2009/01/11 11:26:16
    #23
    Jump to:
    © 2024 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1