Drums and bass in sync

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tcaylor
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January 14, 09 4:40 PM (permalink)

Drums and bass in sync

I'm trying to tighten up a rhythm section programming drums and bass (sometimes bass guitar). Is the statement "Always keep the kick and the bass in sync" the best way to go about this? Does this mean that the bass plays a note only when the kick drum sounds?

Tom

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    No How
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    RE: Drums and bass in sync January 14, 09 4:47 PM (permalink)
    Not always. But if your bassline coincides, at points, with the kick then try to have it ONE sound....if you're doing midi you can do this by opening up your drum track in one of the views (sorry, i forgot what it's called- the view with the tiny grid with grey rectangles for each midi note).
    Copy it and send it to another midi track.
    Open it and delete everything except the kick (if your entire drum kit is on one track).
    record your bassline right over it.
    now go in and get rid of all the 'wrong' notes where the kick was not any where near you bass line.
    Next, for every bass note that is supposed to coincide with a kick but is off a bit, just drag the kick to where the bass note is (the right note). Delete the bass note that is slightly off because now you have the very same midi kick right where the bass goes.
    It tightens it up. It may sound too synthetic or perfect depending on how the bassline is written. It is not the same with a real bass guitar. Dynamics are another element that's hard to replicate in midi and changes the approach.


    edit:spelling
    post edited by No How - January 15, 09 9:19 AM

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    RLD
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    RE: Drums and bass in sync January 14, 09 4:51 PM (permalink)
    This is definitely something I focus on when recording drum and bass parts.
    I wouldn't go so far as to say the "bass only plays a note when the kick sounds"...
    Obviously if the bass is playing 8th notes, the kick won't be doing that all the time.
    More that they "should" work together and support each other.
    I like to solo just the drums and bass. That really make it more obvious where they are "not' working together.
    Hopefully, even with just the drums and bass, you still get a feel for the song and its sounds complete.
    That's when you now your rhythm section is tight.
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    munmun
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    RE: Drums and bass in sync January 14, 09 6:41 PM (permalink)
    Once I have a drum track, I like to pour myself a glass of wine and hum differnt bass tracks to the drum track. I find that with my fingers free of bass strings, my brain clicks into groove mode quicker on its own.
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    CJaysMusic
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    RE: Drums and bass in sync January 14, 09 6:44 PM (permalink)
    The kick and the bass players should be dancing as one. but make sure to keep them sperate so yuo can hear both at the same time.
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    Spaceduck
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    RE: Drums and bass in sync January 14, 09 6:53 PM (permalink)
    This is definitely a cool subject. A while back someone posted a thread about nudging the (midi) bass back in time so that the attack "anticipates" the kick, tightening up the sound.

    I probably can't explain it right, but think of this... if you're using a midi bass sound, the attack begins right on the beat, and the body of the note is a microsecond later. But a real bass player will often play just ahead of the beat so that the grind of the string leads into it, and the body of the note falls right on the kick.

    He suggested moving the entire midi bass track to the left a few ticks to compensate. I've never experimented with this, but it makes sense.
    post edited by Spaceduck - January 14, 09 7:12 PM

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    jacktheexcynic
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    RE: Drums and bass in sync January 14, 09 7:33 PM (permalink)
    "in sync" should be "in the groove". it does not mean (although in laziness this is often my approach) that the MIDI notes start at the same time. as spaceduck said, the bass takes a bit to develop, so it could make sense to nudge it left a bit. but there isn't a real answer because a real bass player and drummer will create a groove that fits the song with articulation, timing, note durations and dynamics.

    most of the time though, you want the bass tightly in sync with the drums, and you should allow it to play off-beat if it sounds good, and you should watch your durations because that usually makes a huge difference compared to (perceived) volume. and of course you can't do much with articulation unless you've got a really good bass synth.

    the gold standard for me is this: if the bass, kick, snare and ride get my body moving in a way that gets me into the song, i'm good to go. if on the other hand, i simply hear drums and bass, i keep messing with the groove until it pops. or give up.

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    BluesMeister
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    RE: Drums and bass in sync January 14, 09 7:53 PM (permalink)
    It's a vexed question and one that has no ideal answer. Sometimes you have to lock into the kick and stick with it, and other times there is enough space in the music for you to add some fills and flourishes on the bass. It really depends on the tune, but it's important to play in concert with those drums. The combination of drums/bass is the heart of a tune, as the ryhthm section you have to drive that tune, the rest is decoration.

    I must say do like munmun's idea of having a glass of wine in the studio with me, my preference is for Jacob's Creek Merlot, slightly chilled. It won't improve my playing at all, but when I'm feeling a little more mellow after a few sips, well, I'll just have a few more sips...

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    Silence Dogood
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    RE: Drums and bass in sync January 22, 09 4:41 AM (permalink)
    ... I thought for SURE this would instantly turn into Yet Another AudioSnap (yaas) thread. but hey!
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    Guitarhacker
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    RE: Drums and bass in sync January 22, 09 8:48 AM (permalink)
    Good topic.... important subject.... as has been stated.... the bass & kick need to work together.... do they need to be note for note in lock step.... no... it would not sound natural if they were. They should be in the same groove, as has been mentioned. When they work together, the whole structure of the song just "feels right" and just the opposite is true when they are not working together.

    I've been in bands where the bassist & drummer were not playing together, and it felt like we (the guitarists) were pushing a bolder up a hill.... not fun at all....

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    Twigman
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    RE: Drums and bass in sync January 22, 09 9:11 AM (permalink)
    It depends a lot on what genre / style of music you are creating.

    In rock the bass often locks in to the kick but in EDM the bass often sounds on the offbeat......

    what style of music are you making?

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    tcaylor
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    RE: Drums and bass in sync January 22, 09 4:48 PM (permalink)
    I'm doing light rock n roll and contemporary stuff. I've been listening to a lot of music focusing on the rhythm, since I started this thread and it really does depend on the song. I think there's room for interpretation but as has been mentioned several times here, the bass and kick have to work together.

    Tom

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    Marah Mag
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    RE: Drums and bass in sync January 22, 09 8:49 PM (permalink)
    When the bass and kick coincide, they should coincide thghtly. That will help keep the low frequency content focused.

    As Spaceduck mentioned, it can be useful to consider the difference between the initial onset of the bass sound and the point where it reaches its full bloom, which can be some milliseconds and isn't necessarily the loudest point of the note. This will be more or less a factor depending on the frequency content of both the bass and the kick sounds -- the kick can lend attack to the bass, just as the bass can lend tonality to the kick. If both are clicky, then their precise time positions becomes all the more important. The key is to keep the low end in time-focus as well as frequency-focus.

    JTEC mentioned note durations. Yes! That's super important. For the most part, kick durations will be consistently short. But bass duration is a huge part of how punchiness is perceived. Bass notes with shorter durations create momentary tonal holes in the low frequency and will have an impact on how the next bass note or kick will be perceived. It's really a kind of "compression" effect that's built into the playing and the part itself. Short duration notes can be followed by slightly time-advanced notes because of how the space sets up the ear to want the hole filled. It's all pretty subliminal. Slight time nudges and clip envelopes work really well for finessing this kind of thing. I've wasted tons of time with such finessements. But they're fun.

    post edited by Marah Mag - January 22, 09 8:59 PM
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    NW Smith
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    RE: Drums and bass in sync January 23, 09 10:10 AM (permalink)
    This is a topic I am very interested in also. I have heard that people use a technique of using a gate to lock in the bass with the kick drum. Has anyone heard of this?

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    NeckHumbucker
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    RE: Drums and bass in sync January 23, 09 1:42 PM (permalink)
    That's called side-chain and usually used with compressors.
    Comp kicks in when kick exceeds a threshhold, but compresses bass, therefore opening space for kick to get through. This is usually done when kick and bass are perfectly in synch and cause a peak.

    As twigman said , relation between kick and bass depends on the genre as well as the overall feeling of the song. In rock, kick and bass are preferred to be in perfect synch, however, if you want to "push" the song, you can place bass before kick, if you want to make song laidback, place the bass after the kick.

    But IMHO the general idea is that the kick should be on the beat and bass should move around it. Because kick is the heartbeat of the song.
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