drjee
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Any plans for something like VST Expression?
Hi, I just looked at the new features of Cubase 5 and I must say that one thing really makes me think that I might better switch (although I just upgraded to Sonar 8) VST Expression This feature seems to be soemthing like human playback in finale. Here is the link which describes the feature in detail: http://www.steinberg.net/en/products/musicproduction/cubase5_product/cubase5_newfeatures/cubase5_newfeatures_4.html Now my question: are there any plan to include a similar feature into Sonar. This is soemthing really needed if you want to make full use or orchestra sample libs (together with better natation features). I really hope it will come soon. As a Cakewalk user from v2 (midi only) I would really regret to leave the platform. Cheers, drjee
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daveny5
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RE: Any plans for something like VST Expression?
2009/01/24 13:24:41
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Have you tried NTONYX Style Enhancer that used to come with Sonar? Check the Sonar website. Now its a plugin for $59.
Dave Computer: Intel i7, ASROCK H170M, 16GB/5TB+, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Sonar Platinum, TASCAM US-16x08, Cakewalk UM-3G MIDI I/F Instruments: SL-880 Keyboard controller, Korg 05R/W, Korg N1R, KORG Wavestation EX Axes: Fender Stratocaster, Line6 Variax 300, Ovation Acoustic, Takamine Nylon Acoustic, Behringer GX212 amp, Shure SM-58 mic, Rode NT1 condenser mic. Outboard: Mackie 1402-VLZ mixer, TC Helicon VoiceLive 2, Digitech Vocalist WS EX, PODXTLive, various stompboxes and stuff. Controllers: Korg nanoKONTROL, Wacom Bamboo Touchpad
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drjee
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RE: Any plans for something like VST Expression?
2009/01/24 14:03:38
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In which way do you think that the style enhancer is similar to VST Expression? It seems that they do completely different stuff.
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John
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RE: Any plans for something like VST Expression?
2009/01/24 14:08:54
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GPO can do this kind of thing. It works much the same way if I understand how the enhancer works. It only works with certain libs I believe It may work only with Steinberg samples and synths.
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drjee
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RE: Any plans for something like VST Expression?
2009/01/25 05:08:32
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Hi John,
I do not have Cubase 5 but from what I understood (by theinformation given and watching the video) this is a feature implemented on the host side (and cannot be implemented or substituted by using a plugin of any kind). It seems that midi notes can be assigned an additinal attribute (in addition to pitch, volume etc.): the expression (you can do this in the piano roll, or, in the staff view using notation elements). And you can define how this expression is trigger for the library you are using. It preconfgured for the stuff Steinberg offers, but you can define it for any lib yourself, and I am sure library producers will soon offer configuration files for their libs. This approach is great since, of course, one could eg draw key switches in the piano roll in Sonar. But when I want to replace my instrument with another, it sure will have completly different key switch assignment. But with VST expression, you just can replce it, no need for further editiing (if the 2 products offer a similar amount of expressions). I beleive this is a very advantageous approach, and I really do not understand way Sonar platinum forum members cannot see it. We as Sonar users should make the company take the challenge instead of saying (without any knowledge): just use this or that.
cheers, drjee
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mudgel
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RE: Any plans for something like VST Expression?
2009/01/25 10:50:31
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In your original post you ask "are there any plan to include a similar feature into Sonar?
This is a peer to peer forum so we don't know what the team at Cakewalk are planning on doing.
To quote you again "We as Sonar users should make the company take the challenge instead of saying (without any knowledge): just use this or that."
There's no reason why you couldn't put in a feature request for this or any other things you'd like to see added. Its clear that the folks at Cakewalk do listen to their users so why not give it a try. Instead of just hoping that it will happen you could play a part in ensuring it will if its such an important feature for you.
Clearly SONAR doesn't have this feature at the moment so i guess the responders to this thread were just making suggestions as to how you might achieve a similar effect with what SONAR currently has.
Mike V. (MUDGEL) STUDIO: Win 10 Pro x64, SPlat & CbB x64, PC: ASUS Z370-A, INTEL i7 8700k, 32GIG DDR4 2400, OC 4.7Ghz. Storage: 7 TB SATA III, 750GiG SSD & Samsung 500 Gig 960 EVO NVMe M.2. Monitors: Adam A7X, JBL 10” Sub. Audio I/O & DSP Server: DIGIGRID IOS & IOX. Screen: Raven MTi + 43" HD 4K TV Monitor. Keyboard Controller: Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol S88.
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John
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RE: Any plans for something like VST Expression?
2009/01/25 11:15:18
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I do not have Cubase 5 but from what I understood (by theinformation given and watching the video) this is a feature implemented on the host side (and cannot be implemented or substituted by using a plugin of any kind). It seems that midi notes can be assigned an additinal attribute (in addition to pitch, volume etc.): the expression (you can do this in the piano roll, or, in the staff view using notation elements). And you can define how this expression is trigger for the library you are using. It preconfgured for the stuff Steinberg offers, but you can define it for any lib yourself, and I am sure library producers will soon offer configuration files for their libs. This approach is great since, of course, one could eg draw key switches in the piano roll in Sonar. But when I want to replace my instrument with another, it sure will have completly different key switch assignment. But with VST expression, you just can replce it, no need for further editiing (if the 2 products offer a similar amount of expressions). I beleive this is a very advantageous approach, and I really do not understand way Sonar platinum forum members cannot see it. We as Sonar users should make the company take the challenge instead of saying (without any knowledge): just use this or that.
cheers, drjee Maybe you misunderstood what I was saying. GPO does exactly the same thing with the same technique. This is not something that has to be built into the sequencer. It only needs sample libraries that will respond to these added key switches. If this were standardized now as per say GPO for example then it could be applied to any sample without any modification to the host program. Its really no different in concept to velocity layering of samples. Aftertouch is not often used by most samplers yet its also is a technique for similar control. MIDI has enormous control ability inherent to it. The problem here are the sample makers that do little to exploit the power in MIDI. The hardware MIDI synth guys have been doing stuff like this for a long time. Its really nothing new as far as I can tell.
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jsaras
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RE: Any plans for something like VST Expression?
2009/01/25 12:21:33
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ORIGINAL: John
GPO can do this kind of thing. It works much the same way if I understand how the enhancer works. It only works with certain libs I believe It may work only with Steinberg samples and synths.
Well, any keyswitched sample library "works the same way", but the point is you can't tell which articulation you've chosen by looking at Sonar's piano roll. The little extra text labels are really nice. Also, the fact that you can look at a notation window and use traditional articulation markings...and the appropriate keyswitch message is routed automatically to the correct key is a nce feature. Sibelius allows for similar control of GPO (and VSL...?). However, in practice, all the "humanization" stuff really doesn't sound nearly as convincing as a real-teime MIDI performance that has had its data tweaked. That said, the "slop" feature that is found in the DVZ string library looks interesting though.
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drjee
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RE: Any plans for something like VST Expression?
2009/01/25 13:06:35
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ORIGINAL: mudgel
There's no reason why you couldn't put in a feature request for this or any other things you'd like to see added. Its clear that the folks at Cakewalk do listen to their users so why not give it a try. Instead of just hoping that it will happen you could play a part in ensuring it will if its such an important feature for you.
I did so, but I hoped other users would join me instead of pointing to to other apps (that in fact do not provide the same funtionality)
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drjee
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RE: Any plans for something like VST Expression?
2009/01/25 13:09:02
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why not watch the video? Then you will realize that this is indeed something new (the closest thing being human playback in Finale, but DFinale does not have a piano roll).
GPO, which I own, does not have it, since it's a host feature and GPO is no host.
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drjee
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RE: Any plans for something like VST Expression?
2009/01/25 13:13:24
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a great advantage is imo that if you want to replace eg GPO with VSL you do not need to re-edit all the keayswitches (if you have configuration files for both libs. And for sure it will be only a matter of time since all the leading libs provide configuration files for this technology)
cheers, drjee
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stlum
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RE: Any plans for something like VST Expression?
2009/05/14 16:42:13
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I must say, considering the number of years keyswitched articulations have been around, it is hard to believe Steinberg beat Cake to the punch on this. I do not use Cubase so I can't swear to it's functionality, but here is why Sonar needs a feature similar to this. Consider a violin passage that needs to start in legato, go to tremolo, then perhaps detache. If the vehicle for that is a multi-instrument where each articulation is called up by a program change you are golden. Sonar has program change searchback and will "remember" what articulation is currently expected (it looks back into the even list to find the most previous command and invokes it just as you hit play, from wherever you are at in the score). But if the vehicle for that is keyswitching, then, if you stop when the instrument was playing tremolo, then move your cursor to somewhere in the middle of the legato passage and hit play, you will be gritting your teeth as you hear your lovely legato coming out in tremolo... because Cake doesn't searchback to keyswitches because it doesn't know that they aren't legitimate note events. That is the crux of the issue... developers used a crutch for program changes (for legitimate real-time performance needs) and circumvented functionality that had been designed to handle program changes in design-time... without a corresponding accommodation from sequencer manufacturers to allow keyswitching to somehow have searchback behavior. What it appears Cubase has done is to create a mapping applet that lets the user define articulation maps that associate specific articulations with specific keyswitch notes, much the way you can currently define instrument maps, or drum maps, now in Sonar. I could really really use this feature (assuming it would searchback like program changes do). It's a royal pain in the ass to be constantly looking at my cheat sheets to find the appropriate keyswitch for the current instrument I'm working with (keyswitches are all over the place and non-standard, as they have to be, because of the different playable note ranges of various instruments. I was recently thinking about solving the problem with KSP scripting (Kontakt 3) but program changes aren't handled events, so no go there. If they were you could add a script to an instrument that intercepted a program change and called a note event based on a lookup table. For the first time in my muscial life the idea of looking at another sequencer has occurred to me... frankly it's appalling to my mind, but there it is.
post edited by stlum - 2009/05/14 16:53:34
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John
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RE: Any plans for something like VST Expression?
2009/05/14 17:11:59
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GPO, which I own, does not have it, since it's a host feature and GPO is no host. True as far as it goes. You are neglecting the point that it will have no effect to libraries that are not coded for it. This will limit it to Steinberg made libraries. Although it has nice touches it still is no different to other similar libraries that have various articulations and use standard MIDI methods to access them.
post edited by John - 2009/05/14 17:21:08
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John
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RE: Any plans for something like VST Expression?
2009/05/14 17:26:55
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Well, any keyswitched sample library "works the same way", but the point is you can't tell which articulation you've chosen by looking at Sonar's piano roll. The little extra text labels are really nice. Also, the fact that you can look at a notation window and use traditional articulation markings...and the appropriate keyswitch message is routed automatically to the correct key is a nce feature. Sure you can by one listening and two looking at what is placed in the area for switching articulations. Its not rocket science.
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RTGraham
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RE: Any plans for something like VST Expression?
2009/05/14 18:05:33
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ORIGINAL: jsaras
Well, any keyswitched sample library "works the same way", but the point is you can't tell which articulation you've chosen by looking at Sonar's piano roll. The little extra text labels are really nice. Also, the fact that you can look at a notation window and use traditional articulation markings...and the appropriate keyswitch message is routed automatically to the correct key is a nce feature.
Absolutely. I just watched the video, and I'm actually impressed. It's probably the first time Steinberg has implemented something in one of their hosts that I wish SONAR had as well. ORIGINAL: stlum
I must say, considering the number of years keyswitched articulations have been around, it is hard to believe Steinberg beat Cake to the punch on this. I do not use Cubase so I can't swear to it's functionality, but here is why Sonar needs a feature similar to this.
Consider a violin passage that needs to start in legato, go to tremolo, then perhaps detache. If the vehicle for that is a multi-instrument where each articulation is called up by a program change you are golden. Sonar has program change searchback and will "remember" what articulation is currently expected (it looks back into the even list to find the most previous command and invokes it just as you hit play, from wherever you are at in the score).
But if the vehicle for that is keyswitching, then, if you stop when the instrument was playing tremolo, then move your cursor to somewhere in the middle of the legato passage and hit play, you will be gritting your teeth as you hear your lovely legato coming out in tremolo... because Cake doesn't searchback to keyswitches because it doesn't know that they aren't legitimate note events.
Excellent example. Well stated.
That is the crux of the issue... developers used a crutch for program changes (for legitimate real-time performance needs) and circumvented functionality that had been designed to handle program changes in design-time... without a corresponding accommodation from sequencer manufacturers to allow keyswitching to somehow have searchback behavior. What it appears Cubase has done is to create a mapping applet that lets the user define articulation maps that associate specific articulations with specific keyswitch notes, much the way you can currently define instrument maps, or drum maps, now in Sonar.
Yes, yes, yes. It's not like the sequencer manufacturers have deliberately ignored the issue; nor is it that the library manufacturers have tried to make things difficult for us. It's just the way things naturally evolved over a period of time. But what Steinberg has done with their VST Expression implementation appears to be intuitive, convenient, and elegant. ORIGINAL: John
You are neglecting the point that it will have no effect to libraries that are not coded for it. This will limit it to Steinberg made libraries.
It's not the HAL library that we're discussing, it's the implementation of VST Expression events in Cubase's version of a piano roll. And it will be effective for any library, from any manufacturer, that supports the triggering of different types of articulations for a given sample (keyswitching, mod wheel, etc.). The user can define expression maps for whatever library they're using - not just Steinberg libraries. ORIGINAL: John
Well, any keyswitched sample library "works the same way", but the point is you can't tell which articulation you've chosen by looking at Sonar's piano roll. The little extra text labels are really nice. Also, the fact that you can look at a notation window and use traditional articulation markings...and the appropriate keyswitch message is routed automatically to the correct key is a nce feature. Sure you can by one listening and two looking at what is placed in the area for switching articulations. Its not rocket science.
It's not a question of rocket science - it's a question of how tedious the current way of doing it is, especially with keyswitching. Seeing the VST Expression implementation makes it obvious how time-consuming traditional keyswitch editing is by comparison. Again, this is not to say that SONAR is "broken" - just that Steinberg has come up with an incredibly impressive, elegant, and intuitive solution to saving time and effort when editing MIDI scores for advanced sample libraries; and as noted above, it's a bit surprising (and perhaps disappointing) that the Cakewalk folks didn't get there first. Hats off to Steinberg on this one. Has anybody put in a Cakewalk feature request for this yet?
post edited by RTGraham - 2009/05/14 18:15:10
~~~~~~~~~~ Russell T. Graham Keys, Vocals, Songwriting, Production russell DOT graham AT rtgproductions DOT com www DOT myspace DOT com SLASH russelltgraham
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dexterflex
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RE: Any plans for something like VST Expression?
2009/05/14 20:57:21
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I;m hoping VST expression is added to sonar 9 and detect video cuts.
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NathanPaul
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Pyro Audio help needed..
2009/05/14 20:59:45
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Is there anyone who might be able to help me with a few pyro audio questions?
Nate Sonar6 Producer, Pyro audio creator, Presonus Firepod, Audio Tec. AT4047/SV, Rode NTK
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Logicology
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Re: Pyro Audio help needed..
2009/07/29 17:40:01
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+1 Please add VST Expression!
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JAL2000
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Re: Pyro Audio help needed..
2014/02/24 11:00:54
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+1 Please add VSt Expression and a articulations controller lane in piano roll similar to Cubase, this will perfect to control the keyswitches in kontakt libraries.
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