keneds
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Final mix bounce
I've heard some mention of bouncing all tracks down to one track to inspect your final mix before coping to a cd or posting it for review. When bouncing, a window pops up with various choices to select. This is where I get confused...... 1) Do I want to bounce the master bus , all busses , or all tracks? 2) Do I want to export the master bus , all busses , or all tracks to be burnt onto a cd? 3) What is...And how should I set the dithering? I thought I had a pretty good mix, so I bounced all tracks (what you hear) to an audio track and my vocal track seemed louder than the unbounced mix. I think the dithering was set to triangular. I feel that I am lacking knoweledge in this department so I felt the need to take it up with the board. Thanks, Ken
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Beagle
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RE: Final mix bounce
January 21, 09 10:32 PM
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first, make sure that ALL of your tracks and buses go thru the master bus. ONLY the master bus should have its output set to the soundcard. if your vocal track is not going to the master bus that could be the cause of your problem of it being louder after export. 1) you want to export ENTIRE MIX to a RIFF WAVE 2) I would not recommend burning to a CD at this point - if you want to use that feature, use it after you've created a wave file for safe keeping. channel format = STEREO bit depth = 16 dithering = highest available (I think is triangle) ONLY if you recorded in 24 bit (which you should). if you recorded in 16bit, turn dithering to NONE
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Guitarhacker
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RE: Final mix bounce
January 22, 09 8:31 AM
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I don't "bounce" the tracks for that purpose. When I want to listen to my mix...outside of MC, I export it using WHAT YOU HEAR as the preset. I open it with my wave editor and take a listen that way. If I like it...I move forward, if not I go back to MC and remix the problems.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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JD1813
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RE: Final mix bounce
January 22, 09 1:46 PM
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whew - this is a good subject and I'm glad to see it addressed. I've been wondering much the same as Ken, and I'm STILL not sure what dithering really is or what the difference is between triangular, rectangle, or none. I do know I'm working in 16-bit just out of habit and I have 24-bit capable box (Edirol USB) but was hesitant to change over due to potential future compatibility issues - but I think I'll start with 24 bit on my next project. Herb, I have been doing what you mentioned - I make my adjustments in MC4, then export to WAV with What You Hear, then I bring it into my wave editor, AudioEdit Deluxe, and I usually find that I have to bring the levels up with its Compression setting - and its default values seem to work fine - a couple seconds later I get both a better-quality WAV and also an MP3 out of it. Beage, do you know what's the difference in the various WAVE forms? RIFF Wave? Broadcast Wave? Do we always want to use RIFF?
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Guitarhacker
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RE: Final mix bounce
January 22, 09 1:53 PM
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John.... good to see you again... Dithering.... isn't that what dirty old men do?...... And come on.... triangle.... a 3 sided geometric shape and a rectangle...a 4 sided geometric shape where the opposite sides are parallel and one set of sides is longer than the other set of sides.... or something like that.... Can't you tell it's a slow day around here?
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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Guitarhacker
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RE: Final mix bounce
January 22, 09 1:54 PM
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Do we always want to use RIFF? YES... unless you're Beagle ...and in that case its "ruff"
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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Beagle
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RE: Final mix bounce
January 22, 09 1:58 PM
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Broadcast Wave basically just allows one to add metadata to the file. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadcast_Wave_Format RIFF wave is the "old standby" and the standard. if you export as a Broadcast wave from MC you'd never know the difference (and neither would anyone else) from a RIFF wave - so it really doesn't matter which one you use, but you're not getting the benefit of the REASON for using Broadcast unless you have an editor which will insert that metadata to your song after export. as far as 24bit and 16bit - you should always be recording in 16bit (excpetions: someone who uses MIDI only and the sampler synth they use doesn't have 24bit samples). 24bit gives you more flexibility and allows you to record at lower levels with higher resolution which in turn makes it easier to mix. dithering is ONLY necessary if your project is in 24bit and you are going to export to a wave file (or even an mp3) for listening to on a CD player, your computer in WMP or whatever. the wave file needs to be exported at 16bit/44100Hz for the standard player to be able to play it. In a nutshell, dithering is: In an analog system, the signal is continuous, but in a PCM digital system, the amplitude of the signal out of the digital system is limited to one of a set of fixed values or numbers. This process is called quantization. Each coded value is a discrete step... if a signal is quantized without using dither, there will be quantization distortion related to the original input signal... In order to prevent this, the signal is "dithered", a process that mathematically removes the harmonics or other highly undesirable distortions entirely, and that replaces it with a constant, fixed noise level. without dithering you can get errors with undesirable artifacts in your wave export. with dithering it helps to eliminate the artifacts. the different types, triangular, rectangular, POWR-3 (sonar exclusive), etc, are simply different algorithms used to apply the dither. sometimes one dither might work better than others, but as a general rule you use the 'best' one available to you.
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Beagle
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RE: Final mix bounce
January 22, 09 1:59 PM
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I think Herb's bored!
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Guitarhacker
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RE: Final mix bounce
January 22, 09 2:12 PM
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And...or...have nothing useful to contribute to this conversation.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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Tap
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RE: Final mix bounce
January 22, 09 2:14 PM
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. RIFF wave is the "old standby" and the standard And RIFF-RAFF was the creator of the Rocky Horror Picture Show !!!!.... This is the first time I've tried to operate this Forum running on a Unix Box( Sun ) under Mozilla ..... The font is so small you can hardly read it and the cut/paste features are really awkward I think I must be the bored one .... I'm waiting for a Test Program to finally load and calibrate ... YES... unless you're Beagle ...and in that case its "ruff" Sounds like Grooooowwwlll to me !!!!   -- TAP --
post edited by Tap - January 22, 09 3:11 PM
MC4 - M-Audio FW410 / Behringer UCA202 - Fender Strat / Jazzmaster / DuoSonic / Washburn / Peavy Foundation M-Audio Radium 49 Roland Juno 106 / JazzChorus / Seymore Duncan Convertible - HP A1230N ( AMD Athalon 3800+ 2G Ram + 200G HD ) http://soundclick.com/cut2thechaise
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JD1813
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RE: Final mix bounce
January 22, 09 3:46 PM
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Beagle: many thanks for the details of RIFF verses Broadcast, and 24-bit vs. 16-bit. Since my final goal is to produce music CD's, that's why I'll stick with 16-bit (and I rarely if ever produce MIDI-only recording). So that's also why I don't have to select the dithering Triangle OR Rectangle option, is that if you start in 16-bit mode, no dithering is necessary. Cool ! K.I.S.S. works very well for me!
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Beagle
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RE: Final mix bounce
January 22, 09 4:05 PM
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Hey, JD, I think you may have misunderstood. you should be using 24bit projects when you record audio, the EXCEPTION should be only if you are using MIDI only projects which don't have 24bit samples. always record using 24bits if you have that capability because it helps you with mixing since you have better resolution on your digitally converted audio files.
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JD1813
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RE: Final mix bounce
January 22, 09 4:44 PM
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Oh! Beagle thanks for clarifying that, I really was wondering what all of the hype would have been about if 24-bit was wasted on the CD-quality creation process. While I knew that 16-bit 44Khz was the audio CD standard, I was puzzled at why we then should record in 24-bit. But this makes sense then - and I'll plan then on switching over begnning with my next song project. Better resolution, and better mix, is well worth pursuing!!  -John
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keneds
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RE: Final mix bounce
January 22, 09 8:55 PM
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Would 16 bit be a default bitrate. Do you need to set it to 24 bit? Does it need to be the first thing that is done when beginning a new project?
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Beagle
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RE: Final mix bounce
January 22, 09 9:27 PM
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ken - you can set the default to be 24bit as long as your soundcard supports it. OPTIONS>AUDIO>AUDIO DRIVER BIT DEPTH = 24
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57Gregy
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RE: Final mix bounce
January 22, 09 10:03 PM
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as far as 24bit and 16bit - you should always be recording in 16bit (excpetions: someone who uses MIDI only and the sampler synth they use doesn't have 24bit samples). 24bit gives you more flexibility and allows you to record at lower levels with higher resolution which in turn makes it easier to mix. I think JD was referring to this quote, Beagle. I understood it was a typo, but it may have thrown a curve to JD. Since I started working with the Focusrite Saffire in ASIO, it won't let me change the bit rate; it's grayed out. Probably because it's been at 16 bit since day 1, but I think I could change it by reverting to WDM, selecting 24 bit and going back to ASIO.
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Beagle
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RE: Final mix bounce
January 22, 09 10:10 PM
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ooopps - yeah, that was a typo!
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JD1813
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RE: Final mix bounce
January 23, 09 12:40 AM
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whew - just getting back on here during a lunchbreak - yes Greg and Beagle, that was indeed the statement that confused me about defaulting to 16-bit, but after your second statement I was clear. I'm planning to begin a new project this weekend and it will be my first entry into 24-bit. Its not like I'm expecting to hear anything startling different, but I do understand the points in favor of working in greater resolution.
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keneds
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RE: Final mix bounce
January 23, 09 4:08 PM
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ORIGINAL: 57Gregy it won't let me change the bit rate; it's grayed out. Probably because it's been at 16 bit since day 1, but I think I could change it by reverting to WDM, selecting 24 bit and going back to ASIO. I have the same issue. I think I will try that as well. Thanks Greg,
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57Gregy
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RE: Final mix bounce
January 24, 09 0:49 PM
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Ken, somewhere, sometime in the past, I read that the bit rate doesn't matter in ASIO. I have searched through various help, FAQ and notes I have, looking for that reference, but haven't found it. I can't remember where I read it. I assume that the bit rate can't be changed A) until you revert to WDM or 2. it doesn't matter what the bit rate is in ASIO.
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Beagle
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RE: Final mix bounce
January 24, 09 6:36 AM
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no, not sure who said that, but the bit rate does matter in asio. and I'm not sure why your not able to change to 24 bit in asio unless your asio drivers are not written to allow it. if that's the case then I'd use WDM. there's nothing that says ASIO is better than WDM - it has advantages like it won't let you use your onboard soundcard at the same time which helps a lot of people who don't disable their onboard soundcard because that way they can't have both running in MC, but if the WDM drivers are written just as fast as the ASIO then there's no other real advantage to using ASIO over WDM.
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keneds
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RE: Final mix bounce
January 24, 09 8:38 AM
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I tried switching it last night the way Gregy mentioned with the restarts and all and it remained grayed out. I kinow I've changed it before and now I can't seem to switch it to 24 b. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have another question off of this topic. How do I delete junk projects. Witch file will allows me to trash the unwanted projects that are on my quick start list. I cant get rid of the little buggers...
SONAR Platinum Dell XPS17 / External 23" touch screen & 22" HP displays/Windows 10 64bit i5 processor/ 8Gb ram/500GB (7200rpm SATA HD)/Roland VS-700 set/KRK rockit 6/KRK 10" sub and a bunch of cables EZdrummer2 / EZmix2
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Beagle
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RE: Final mix bounce
January 24, 09 9:35 AM
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post us some screen shots, Ken. the UX1 is capable of 24bit so we should try to figure out what's going on. also- look at those screens in a BRAND NEW PROJECT, not one you've been working on.
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Beagle
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RE: Final mix bounce
January 24, 09 10:19 AM
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ken - according to the RECORDING AND SETUP GUIDE for the UX1: 5c – Audio Input: In the top selector, you will be able to choose any Record Send for your Line 6 device to view • it’s format settings below. The • Format selectors show you the Sample Rate* and Bit Depth that the Line 6 device is operating at for recording. The Bit Depth for all Line 6 devices is fixed at 24 bit. so I'm not sure why the 16bit is enabled and greyed out in sonar - screen shots of those window might help. greg - were you able to change to 24bit?
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keneds
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RE: Final mix bounce
January 24, 09 11:10 AM
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It does say 24 bit at the bottom of my screen but the bit rate selector is gray @ 16 bit.
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Beagle
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RE: Final mix bounce
January 24, 09 11:15 AM
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if it says 24bit at the bottom of the screen - then you're running at 24bit. the UX1 is locked at 24bit, so maybe it's just greyed out because you can't change it. not sure.
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57Gregy
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RE: Final mix bounce
January 24, 09 12:16 AM
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Well, Reece, all my current projects are at 16-bit, so I will try to change it the next time I start a new song. The grayed-out setting reads 24-bit, although at the bottom of the screen it reads 16-bit. Also the clip properties of selected clips reads 16-bit. I read the entire Focusrite user guide last night and found no reference to the bit rate not mattering in ASIO, also searched the MC Pro 24 and SHS 6 help files for ASIO, bit depth, sampling rate and found no reference there, either. Funny, though, that in the MC P 24 help it states that MC will only work in 16-bit, but MC P 24 was specifically made to work in 24-bit, hence the name. Another example of insufficient help file editing. Maybe I was dreaming.
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Beagle
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RE: Final mix bounce
February 02, 09 1:19 PM
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I don't remember reading your reply here- I had to go search for it when I remembered it. your audio driver bit depth is 24, but your file bit depth is 16 - you should change that to 24 and your next new project will be 24bit inlcuding the properties of the clips (I believe)
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