Chill

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Sync99
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2009/03/04 16:04:09 (permalink)

Chill

Hey Folks,

Any fans of :- Zero 7, 4 Hero, Kinobe, Bob harz, King Kooba, The Aloof et etc ~ you know, Chill type stuff.

Difficult to get good midi's off the net for this genre ! I think this would be a good introduction / inspiration to start composing myself (I do play Piano ~ which helps).

Got plenty of classical music (Fantastic sound quality using GPO as well) but not the above and this is one way I'd like to go :)

Regards

Sync99
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    Jonbouy
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    RE: Chill 2009/03/04 16:31:43 (permalink)
    Zero 7


    Yes...well Simple Things is one of my favs at least.

    No there's not much in the way of midi out there for that kind of thing, but there are a lot of off the wall sounding string type arrangements on that particular album which are worth studying closely.

    Unfortunately singers like Sia are hard to come by too.

    A nice tight acoustic drum sound, a good fingered bass sound and a nice bright piano to form the basis would be a good starting point for the arrangements, then choose some nice atmospheric pads underneath those stringy arrangements and you would be well on your way.

    You don't need existing midi's to pull this off as you'll be able to roll your own vibe with a little application, not easy but do-able.
    post edited by Jonbouy - 2009/03/04 16:38:45

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    Fog
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    RE: Chill 2009/03/04 22:04:41 (permalink)
    Hi Chris , you won't find any 4hero midi's anywhere.. due to to the nature of the music and it's structure.. also the fact it's live players. depends what era you know them from, remember they have been going since 88 (mr kirks nightmare etc)..

    zero 7 also I like simple things.. again they use live stuff...

    you might wanna check out the 4hero forum, "omniverse" , I think you'd like it.
    http://omniverse21281.yuku.com/forum/view/id/1

    2 4hero tracks that are probably my fav's

    journey from the light
    black gold sun remix

    they have done shed loads of remixes over the years.. I've known rivers by Courtney Pine is nice also.

    as well as running the seminal label "reinforced"
    A lot of their stuff has been pulled off youtube, so can't give you any links I'm afraid.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82BAPjlNwXI

    really cool remix.. I like it as much as the original..


    post edited by Fog - 2009/03/04 22:14:58
    #3
    Sync99
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    RE: Chill 2009/03/05 15:10:54 (permalink)
    Jonbouy / Fog .......Thankyou for the feedback.

    I think a minimalist arrangement as Jonbouy suggests is a good way to go as I have a lot of ground to make up. An additional approach is imitation to see if I can reproduce similar sounds with the synths + FX's I have.

    Two groups I should have listed as well ~ Groove Armada + Air.

    I also find the music of Film score composers stunning ~ John Barry, Morricone, James Horner, Hans Zimmer, Thomas Newman and Karl Jenkins.

    This is way too ambitious and I should start with the Chill for the time being. This will still be very rewarding as some of the Chill tracks have a big impact for me.

    Regards

    Chris
    #4
    space_cowboy
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    RE: Chill 2009/03/05 16:36:33 (permalink)
    Air is great
    10,000 hz legend is in my top 50 or so all time albums.
    P-E-O-P-L-E-C-I-T-Y
    People in the city

    catchy


    Some people call me Maurice
     
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    #5
    Sync99
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    RE: Chill 2009/03/05 16:55:06 (permalink)
    Should give Moby his Dues as well......
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    cryophonik
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    RE: Chill 2009/03/05 17:12:25 (permalink)
    Hey Chris and welcome to the forums!

    ORIGINAL: Sync99

    I think a minimalist arrangement as Jonbouy suggests is a good way to go as I have a lot of ground to make up.


    One word of "warning", I suppose. I personally struggle with minimalist tracks because you can't really hide anything. Each part is heard and almost has to be interesting enough to stand on its own, whereas in more complex arrangements, you can add layers of not-so-interesting parts, because the individual layers usually aren't "heard." I'm always impressed by guys/gals who can pull together a minimalist or ambient piece and keep it interesting for 3+ minutes. There seems to be a pretty fine line between boring and interesting in these styles.

    ORIGINAL: Sync99
    ...I should start with the Chill for the time being. This will still be very rewarding as some of the Chill tracks have a big impact for me.



    Same here - I'm a big fan of chill, downtempo, ambient, etc.

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    Jonbouy
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    RE: Chill 2009/03/05 18:53:24 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: Sync99

    Jonbouy / Fog .......Thankyou for the feedback.

    I think a minimalist arrangement as Jonbouy suggests is a good way to go as I have a lot of ground to make up. An additional approach is imitation to see if I can reproduce similar sounds with the synths + FX's I have.

    Two groups I should have listed as well ~ Groove Armada + Air.

    I also find the music of Film score composers stunning ~ John Barry, Morricone, James Horner, Hans Zimmer, Thomas Newman and Karl Jenkins.

    This is way too ambitious and I should start with the Chill for the time being. This will still be very rewarding as some of the Chill tracks have a big impact for me.

    Regards

    Chris


    Chris

    I reckon we'll have a lot in common given the influences you are citing.

    Here's an example of a remix I did awhile back in the style of Groove Armada's 'Suntoucher', there's only about 8 midi tracks to it in total plus an audio track featuring our very own 'Guitarhacker'

    http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=836974&songID=7154799

    I don't know what synths and stuff you are using or have access to but this track all the sounds here are solely from Reason 4 rewired to Sonar where the midi was arranged and where it was mixed down, theres a few one shot samples but no loops so short of Herb's guitar part it's all midi.
    post edited by Jonbouy - 2009/03/05 19:01:33

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    Sync99
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    RE: Chill 2009/03/08 08:58:22 (permalink)
    Cryophonik

    "One word of "warning", I suppose. I personally struggle with minimalist tracks because you can't really hide anything. Each part is heard and almost has to be interesting enough to stand on its own, whereas in more complex arrangements, you can add layers of not-so-interesting parts, because the individual layers usually aren't "heard." I'm always impressed by guys/gals who can pull together a minimalist or ambient piece and keep it interesting for 3+ minutes. There seems to be a pretty fine line between boring and interesting in these styles."

    Reckon your right .........definitely this is where the art will come into it !

    Jonbouy

    Sounds good.............with the power of computing increasing, the capture quality of samples is superb. Not so long ago I seemed to be playing around with synth's that sounded like :- annoying phone ring tones / old door bell tunes / Trumpets and Violins sounded the same etc etc .........

    Regards
    Chris
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    Roflcopter
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    RE: Chill 2009/03/08 09:04:13 (permalink)
    I really liked this bit of afterparty chilldown, by an Italian woman I had never heard of before - Angie Passarella. Track's called Echoe, simple, but pretty catchy.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jQq9W_RAlQ

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    thebiglongy
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    RE: Chill 2009/03/08 09:22:09 (permalink)
    Zero 7, Air, Boards of Canada, Cinematic Orchestra, Charles Webster....definately some of my favourites.

    As for making tracks like thiers, the only way to do it is to feel it :D All of these artists manage to put out music that has a really nice balance of emotion and electronics. Starting basic is always going to be the best way to work on this, usually by finding a nice pad sound first which represents the mood you want the song to take on. Adding in live acoustic drums with a little bit of electronic, piano's to help carry and add some deviation from the main loop, then top it off with a nice suiting bass and breathy vocals.

    Check out www.myspace.com/musicismathband
    the track Airborne was one of the chillout ideas i had, all started with a nice pad sound, no vocals on this one though.

    Right now we are progressing and getting it as live sounding as possible, while crossing as many genre's as we feel necessary for each track, but the key to it all is feeling, chillout should make you wanna chill out and listen to either the sounds or the vocals (vocals should have a nice theme imho, and be well written) although there are the odd band out there that do some wierd lyrics that just seem to work lol (haujobb, mum, lamb, herbalizer).
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    SteveJL
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    RE: Chill 2009/03/08 09:56:06 (permalink)
    as well as Massive Attack, Conjure One, Tosco, Binobo, Praful, and St. Germain. Yep, Love Chill. And, in addition to MIDI, LOOPS my friend. Deconstruct and reconstruct 'em, twist 'em, roll 'em, turn 'em inside out and let 'em girate

     
    #12
    Lemonboy
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    RE: Chill 2009/03/08 10:05:56 (permalink)
    I think i'd look for loops rather than midi, it is a slightly more expensive way about it but much quicker for inspiration and you can replace them later with some midi programming. Do a google search or just take some faster beats and slow them down! As others have said it is quite a hard genre to get right, most of the good artists get a really good "connection" of sounds and groove going, not to mention good arrangements and melodies.

    Andy

    Ah - Steve got there before me - damn my one finger typing! Good job I can play keyboards with two
    post edited by Lemonboy - 2009/03/08 10:07:15
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    foxwolfen
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    RE: Chill 2009/03/08 13:25:14 (permalink)
    When you say "from the internet", what do you mean? Legally purchased or just downloaded?

    If you are not purchasing an authorized licensed version of the midi (licensed by the copyright holder of the real song, not the person who created the midi), you are guilty of piracy and copyright violation the same as if you downloaded a pirate MP3.

    If you like a style of music, then come up with original work of your own. Do not recreate a favorite song, as again, this is piracy and copyright violation.

    From a philosophical and personal perspective, I find it analogous to the difference between a 20,000 dollar Rolex and a cheap 20 dollar Chinese knockoff. I know everybody wants to be an artist, but the truth is not everybody can be. If you cannot create your own original music, do not pretend to by using or recreating somebody else's as you are not really doing any of the hard work. I know some will find this harsh or elitist. That is unavoidable, as it is and I do not apologize for it.

    Until a person pays their dues (by suffering through the pain of composer angst), I will not have a great deal of respect for their effort. Heck I am even getting to the point where loops are no longer acceptable, not even my own. Products like Sonar have made music creation accessible to a lot more people, but it also means there are a lot of really lazy or less than honest people making music now, which when one contrasts with the people who work and practice hard, one can see how it begins to devalue all our efforts.

    Shad
    post edited by foxwolfen - 2009/03/08 13:32:00

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    Fog
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    RE: Chill 2009/03/08 13:54:59 (permalink)
    Shad, your comments are funny in the sense of.. hhmm. here goes.. I've known one of the artists Sync mentioned since maybe 91, I'd class him as a friend (hopefully he'd say the same) . Mainly due to where I live in London..the band has covered 2 songs, BUT they aren't exactly well known, but thanks to them they are more so now. The cover versions are recreations of the originals BUT very respectful.

    Was he influenced by other , yep.. we all are , but he puts his own twists on stuff etc. He's actually one of the few people whose music I buy without thinking about it and that's not bias towards knowing him. I kept the 2 things separate, at first there was a song... and I didn't even know it was his work and me like the idiot I am, made some good comments about it only to find out later it was his work. I think he found it funnier to let me say it and not realise he was behind it.

    He's one of the very few people in the industry , esp. in London that people have never said anything bad about. He's a person that makes music for music sakes, yep he has to pay the bills , but the work he does like more is about music foremost.

    Although the band isn't about image..etc.. it's a pity they aren't more commerically successful vs the tripe the majors are chucking out.

    as for loops.. hhmm thats the whole structure of a song, much like hooks etc.. so sometimes familiarity helps.
    post edited by Fog - 2009/03/08 14:04:53
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    SteveJL
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    RE: Chill 2009/03/08 14:26:14 (permalink)
    I think I'm starting to get with the fact that you are going to be the one who swoops into many/most/all threads and launches the high-and-mighty self-righteous soapbox crap that will bring us all to the blessed place

    I'm thinking the Block button will have to do my work from here on out with you. (Please don't Quote the shadman everyone )

     
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    jamesg1213
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    RE: Chill 2009/03/08 14:45:20 (permalink)
    Chill-out, mmm..I like the French band 'Air'

    Cherry Blossom Girl

     
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    foxwolfen
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    RE: Chill 2009/03/08 14:52:23 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: SteveJL

    I think I'm starting to get with the fact that you are going to be the one who swoops into many/most/all threads and launches the high-and-mighty self-righteous soapbox crap that will bring us all to the blessed place

    I'm thinking the Block button will have to do my work from here on out with you. (Please don't Quote the shadman everyone )

    I really do not think I will loose much sleep over it.

    A scientist knows more & more about less & less till he knows everything about nothing, while a philosopher knows less & less about more & more till he knows nothing about everything.

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    #18
    foxwolfen
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    RE: Chill 2009/03/08 15:33:57 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: Fog

    Shad, your comments are funny in the sense of.. hhmm. here goes.. I've known one of the artists Sync mentioned since maybe 91, I'd class him as a friend (hopefully he'd say the same) . Mainly due to where I live in London..the band has covered 2 songs, BUT they aren't exactly well known, but thanks to them they are more so now. The cover versions are recreations of the originals BUT very respectful.

    Was he influenced by other , yep.. we all are , but he puts his own twists on stuff etc. He's actually one of the few people whose music I buy without thinking about it and that's not bias towards knowing him. I kept the 2 things separate, at first there was a song... and I didn't even know it was his work and me like the idiot I am, made some good comments about it only to find out later it was his work. I think he found it funnier to let me say it and not realise he was behind it.

    He's one of the very few people in the industry , esp. in London that people have never said anything bad about. He's a person that makes music for music sakes, yep he has to pay the bills , but the work he does like more is about music foremost.

    Although the band isn't about image..etc.. it's a pity they aren't more commerically successful vs the tripe the majors are chucking out.

    as for loops.. hhmm thats the whole structure of a song, much like hooks etc.. so sometimes familiarity helps.


    Unfortunately, unless you all assume I am omniscient, there is no way i would know anything other than what he posted, and no way to confirm or deny anything you say about him.

    I was not really accusing him of anything in particular, but trying to communicate:

    1. Truths (the copyright issue is real, like it or not) and

    2. a perspective that more people than just I share about relative value (unless you are saying in a planet of 6 billion I am the only one who feels that way?).

    Sorry, not every reply I make can be positive. Sometimes communicating legal realities or a perspective is not entirely pleasant.

    As for the message, reading between the lines, its easy to see that all i was suggesting was that he indeed try to do something original and not use other peoples work. If he must, and if he has legal permission and is actually helping raise the profile of a song writer who he knows and works with, obviously that is perfectly fine. I mean come on, I am neither unreasonable nor stupid. But from his original post how would I know that?

    I think in 2800 posts I have demonstrated a great deal of respect for my fellow artist. Does anybody deny this? But more importantly, does anybody honestly think I share every opinion I have supported in the past? I am sorry, but that would make me rather shallow and one dimensional with no original thoughts in my head, would it not? If as an artist the only thing I see of value is "original", and everything else is a "copy", why would I (why would you)? But, I do support the right to have an idea that I may not agree with (in fact I said as much in a song comment recently).

    When I say something "philosophically", I am simply having a discussion that is obviously about my personal perspective. Is that not my right, and not the point of this particular forum... music related off topic discussion? Be kinda boring if we were all a bunch of "me too" men I think.

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    #19
    Fog
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    RE: Chill 2009/03/08 16:36:29 (permalink)
    Shad.. here ya go

    the originals
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWnJLZpnLvk
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2lNf2WHxeI

    and the newer versions
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXK60prBI_w
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPoLZpwSDSo

    I'm sure both Minnie (if she was still alive) and Stevie would give the newer versions a big thumbs up. Maybe one day I can get them to rework some of my stuff, for me they are on the who's who of remixes along with MAW and a few more.

    the whole copyright thing for me is a BIG joke at the moment. I'm helping a friend regarding his work being used by an artist signed to a major. Thankfully the person in question wants to resolve it, which is nice.. So I won't name them because he is actually showing respect for the other persons work, but perhaps naively they used it and assumed it was public domain.

    Go look up "timbaland finnish" on youtube and listen to the radio interview in response to it. Do I use clean samples in my work yep and pay the licenses to use em. so why shouldn't these so called major artists, worst is some cases they are passing it off solely as their own creation. Remember these are the very same labels who say "go out and buy our products" yet the content of these actual products is dubious in some cases.

    finding midi's for things , well esp minimal stuff, it's not so much about the arrangement more the many layers that have gone into the sound, and that is much tougher in ways to re-create to have it really full sounding. People in these groups, some try to keep a secret what equipment etc they use for that reason.

    If you know of the artists work in question that Sync posted about, in a way it's flattering for the people he mentioned, I'm sure they'd see it that way. It's like people can strip apart music to find out the mechanics of how people did things, esp fx with samplers etc. Back in the old days it was more fun.. I mean you'd have 1 person come out with a crazy effect.. then the other would try to better it.. time stretching vs using an harmoniser on break beats is the one that comes to mind. So the sound is still in time but pitched up.

    I dunno if you took my post as being literal? it wasn't meant as such. I mean I have an insight into one person that was mentioned. He has been inspired by many groups from all sorts of genre's. You lost me on some of you points TBH.

    have you ever listened to something , not so much the music.. the mechanic's / structure / sound behind it and thought WOW? thats the angle I think sync was coming from. Even with things like how the arrangement is quantised , sometimes not to a standard signature. It's a bit like ELO's Mr blue sky for me.. the arrangement / structure of it I find as interesting as the song itself.


    no one has to agree on anything really. ermm e.g. I still think James secretly is Scottish but hey thats probably me being a bit dumb.
    post edited by Fog - 2009/03/08 16:44:27
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    jamesg1213
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    RE: Chill 2009/03/08 17:28:27 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: Fog


    no one has to agree on anything really. ermm e.g. I still think James secretly is Scottish but hey thats probably me being a bit dumb.



    With the surname Griffiths, that'd be a very well-kept secret..

     
    Jyemz
     
     
     



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    #21
    foxwolfen
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    RE: Chill 2009/03/08 18:09:01 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: Fog

    have you ever listened to something , not so much the music.. the mechanic's / structure / sound behind it and thought WOW? thats the angle I think sync was coming from. Even with things like how the arrangement is quantised , sometimes not to a standard signature. It's a bit like ELO's Mr blue sky for me.. the arrangement / structure of it I find as interesting as the song itself.



    All the time. And that I fully respect. I am not sure there is any other way to learn and grow but to listen critically to your favorite music. And sure, looking at a midi that somebody did might illuminate some procedural aspects of music production.

    Yes, I might be flattered that somebody takes what I make and improves it, but they need to ask permission first, and it needs to be an improvement. This is the way I view it as an artist, not as a record exec. As an exec, whatever, just pay me.

    That was not what I was talking about.

    But, I made a mistake in some ways my as response was somewhat out of direct context. I had similar feelings about a cover song posted recently that used a midi taken from the web. This was the second example (it seemed to me) of another person not thinking about what it is they may be doing, and how some artists may view what it is they are doing (assuming my opinion as an artist is not less valuable). He (the OP) seemed to be lamenting the lack of midi covers, and resigning himself to the fact that he would have to make his own.

    Cheers
    Shad
    post edited by foxwolfen - 2009/03/08 18:16:58

    A scientist knows more & more about less & less till he knows everything about nothing, while a philosopher knows less & less about more & more till he knows nothing about everything.

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    #22
    Lemonboy
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    RE: Chill 2009/03/09 05:00:02 (permalink)
    When you say "from the internet", what do you mean? Legally purchased or just downloaded?

    If you are not purchasing an authorized licensed version of the midi (licensed by the copyright holder of the real song, not the person who created the midi), you are guilty of piracy and copyright violation the same as if you downloaded a pirate MP3.

    If you like a style of music, then come up with original work of your own. Do not recreate a favorite song, as again, this is piracy and copyright violation.


    Hi Shad

    While i agree with a lot of what you said there, i do think you came in a bit heavy (especially for a thread called "chill").

    I almost always try and use my own midi programming, but it is time consuming, and if you are writing a track for non-commercial purposes let's not lose sight of the fun aspect (midi programming can be rewarding, but I rarely find it fun!). There have been a lot of tracks that i have loved that have used other peoples originals as a basis (safe from Harm by Massive Attack comes to mind) but it has not stopped me loving the 'cover' and then often discovering the original (which I would not have done otherwise).

    And for for something that takes other peoples music and makes something new, have a look at this http://thru-you.com/#/videos/1/

    Fantastic!

    Andy
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    Jonbouy
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    RE: Chill 2009/03/09 05:36:34 (permalink)
    Excellent and thoughtful post that last one Fog, I must say.

    To my mind bands like Portishead mastered loops as just another expressive tool much like a guitar or piano and most if not all of their loopy stuff was culled from their own studio takes, which is probably the best way to go if you want an individual sound. Trouble with loops is although theres plenty of them somebody is bound to turn up to the party wearing the same frock so to speak, whereas with midi clips at least you can govern the sounds used and blend it all with the track and vibe you are working on.

    It all kind of harks back for me to 'Version' (not 'Dub') reggae where the producers were actually splicing tape to combine the aspects and elements of other tracks to create something completely new but always nodding complete respect to the original recordist (whether they liked it or not!).

    Imagine that, splicing tape, these folks moaning 'cause 8.3 is a few ticks out when lining up clips don't know they're born...

    And besides I always thought new music was driven by a need to break out of conformity not to accede to what Ma' and Pa' said we should do...I think David Bowie once said "the Bitter comes out Better on a stolen guitar". There ain't no rules it's all Rock 'n Roll to me....

    If you ever come across this book give it a read it's a classic.

    http://www.amazon.com/Revolt-into-Style-Pop-Arts/dp/0192840231
    post edited by Jonbouy - 2009/03/09 06:00:37

    "We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles.
    In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
    #24
    Fog
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    RE: Chill 2009/03/09 16:38:34 (permalink)
    Jon I posted this as a joke on the cutting glass thread..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8v1MVzIEMY

    but then I didn't realise... it didn't sound 1000 miles away from

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdxIhNOgwBE

    amazing what you learn from looking at youtube comments..hehe
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    Lemonboy
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    RE: Chill 2009/03/10 04:09:00 (permalink)
    Hi Fog

    Yes, similar! but, to quote The Pretenders (and plenty others), there is a thin line between love and hate - give me Low without the "e" everytime!!

    Andy
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