bunnyfluffer
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Recording BEFORE Measure 1 ?
is it possible to set up Sonar w/ some kind of offset so that it starts recording on measure 0 or measure -1 ?
the hard input on measure one is a drag, and starting recording on measure 2 is a drag too.
help?
thanks.
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rbowser
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Re:Recording BEFORE Measure 1 ?
May 04, 10 1:26 AM
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bunnyfluffer
is it possible to set up Sonar w/ some kind of offset so that it starts recording on measure 0 or measure -1 ?
the hard input on measure one is a drag, and starting recording on measure 2 is a drag too.
help?
thanks.
No, there isn't a way to do that, and there's no need for that. Why is it a "drag" to start on either measure 1 or 2? You do realize that you can set the metronome to give you whatever kind of count in you want, right? I usually set it to a 2 beat count in - I'm good to go after that. rbowser
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ivanSC
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Re:Recording BEFORE Measure 1 ?
May 04, 10 1:54 AM
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because if you are used to traditional recording/notation etc & do a lot of bar calculating, it is a pain in the ass to have to keep remembering you ar a bar or two off the REAL count.
but there again I only know of one daw that lets you do what he wants and it isnt Sonar.
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BluesMeister
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Re:Recording BEFORE Measure 1 ?
May 04, 10 2:05 AM
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Ivan, I use markers, so I don't need to refer to measure numbers, I can see that the Chorus starts here, or Verse 2 starts here the the Coda begins here. I've used chord names in the past too: Em7 D9 that kind of thing to keep track of where I am. Generally, all of my tunes begin with a two measure count in (usually Sticks in EZD) then we're off and running. Your kilometerage may vary, of course.
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papa2005
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Re:Recording BEFORE Measure 1 ?
May 04, 10 2:09 AM
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I don't know why CW hasn't incorporated this feature. People have been asking about it for years.
Adobe Audition has had this feature for as long as I can remember (perhaps even back to the CEP days before Syntrillium sold out to Adobe but I don't remember back that far)...
Regards, Papa CLICK HERE for a link to support for SONAR 8.5 CLICK HERE to view a list of video tutorials... CLICK HERE for a link to Getting Started with Session Drummer 3...
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rbowser
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Re:Recording BEFORE Measure 1 ?
May 04, 10 2:12 AM
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Yes, BluesMeister - that's what I was suggesting earlier. Markers when used extensively, and there's no reason not to do so, circumvent what can seem like a hassle with measure numbers.
I repeat - you can set the metronome to anything you want. If you insist on pedantically keeping your eyes glued to what measure number you are on, you can have Sonar's time line and the actual measure count match up if you just understand how to count in to your project.
rbowser
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papa2005
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Re:Recording BEFORE Measure 1 ?
May 04, 10 2:17 AM
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rbowser
Yes, BluesMeister - that's what I was suggesting earlier. Markers when used extensively, and there's no reason not to do so, circumvent what can seem like a hassle with measure numbers.
I repeat - you can set the metronome to anything you want. If you insist on pedantically keeping your eyes glued to what measure number you are on, you can have Sonar's time line and the actual measure count match up if you just understand how to count in to your project.
rbowser
Randy, What the OP is trying to achieve is to have a measure "0" or a measure "-1" to accomodate and pickup notes (say a two beat drum fill) leading into the downbeat of the first full measure (measure "1")...
Regards, Papa CLICK HERE for a link to support for SONAR 8.5 CLICK HERE to view a list of video tutorials... CLICK HERE for a link to Getting Started with Session Drummer 3...
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Susan G
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Re:Recording BEFORE Measure 1 ?
May 04, 10 2:23 AM
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Hi Randy- If you insist on pedantically keeping your eyes glued to what measure number you are on, you can have Sonar's time line and the actual measure count match up if you just understand how to count in to your project. My goodness!  IMO, there's nothing "pedantic" about wanting the measure number to match where you actually are. "Logical", "practical", yes -- and certainly reasonable. It's been requested for years, and like lots of FRs, it lies dormant for long periods and then gets resurrected. Can I live without it? Of course; I've been limping along somehow with the way it is for years, but I'm still all for it!  -Susan
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papa2005
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Re:Recording BEFORE Measure 1 ?
May 04, 10 3:26 AM
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Regards, Papa CLICK HERE for a link to support for SONAR 8.5 CLICK HERE to view a list of video tutorials... CLICK HERE for a link to Getting Started with Session Drummer 3...
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:Recording BEFORE Measure 1 ?
May 04, 10 3:57 AM
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I may be over simplifying things but it wouldn't even be hard for CW to implement. All they'd have to do is give you (the user) the ability to change the ruler start number from 0 to -1 or whatever you liked, make sure all other references to measure/time/position etc takes its reference from that starting point. Problem solved, or am I being over simplistic?
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papa2005
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Re:Recording BEFORE Measure 1 ?
May 04, 10 4:33 AM
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FastBikerBoy
I may be over simplifying things but it wouldn't even be hard for CW to implement. All they'd have to do is give you (the user) the ability to change the ruler start number from 0 to -1 or whatever you liked, make sure all other references to measure/time/position etc takes its reference from that starting point. Problem solved, or am I being over simplistic?
In Audition, you can set measure "1" to anywhere your cursor is...Perhaps the limitations in SONAR are how the Staff View would be affected...I'm not sure...Perhaps some computer genius (or a CW staff member) could comment on this...
Regards, Papa CLICK HERE for a link to support for SONAR 8.5 CLICK HERE to view a list of video tutorials... CLICK HERE for a link to Getting Started with Session Drummer 3...
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Susan G
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Re:Recording BEFORE Measure 1 ?
May 04, 10 6:36 AM
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Hi Papa- Perhaps the limitations in SONAR are how the Staff View would be affected...I'm not sure. Nor am I, but one of the reasons some folks have been asking for this (it might even have come up in that link you posted) is because if people are working off printed parts it would be nice if the measure numbers match what's in SONAR.  I don't use SONAR for printing scores these days, but when I did the first thing I'd do is delete the empty bar(s) at the beginning. And especially for simple traditional song structures, I think it's normal to want to see obvious multiples or divisions of 8 -- no mental math required (however easy  ). -Susan
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Jimbo 88
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Re:Recording BEFORE Measure 1 ?
May 04, 10 9:10 AM
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Yes, I vote for being able to create negative measure numbers. It would have been great in the old days to be able to send patch data out before the song started and still start in measure 1. If you score to picture it has even greater benifits. Just to be able to have a pick up into the song would be nice.
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Grem
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Re:Recording BEFORE Measure 1 ?
May 04, 10 9:38 AM
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All I want to do is have the mesures match what I am use to. Even after all this time starting on the two, I still am not comfortable with it. And yes I use the heck out of markers. Still doesn't solve the problem when I'm putting a new song together.
Grem
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ivanSC
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Re:Recording BEFORE Measure 1 ?
May 04, 10 10:29 AM
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The problem we have here is engineers trying to discuss matters musical with musicians.
We dont speak the same language or even think the same.
I HATE software that forces me to change the way I work to accomodate its foibles, but since that pretty much accounts for every damn piece of software I have ever used, I guess I am stuffed.
Say goodnight, Gracie.
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papa2005
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Re:Recording BEFORE Measure 1 ?
May 04, 10 10:38 AM
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ivanSC
The problem we have here is engineers trying to discuss matters musical with musicians.
We dont speak the same language or even think the same.
I must disagree...Of the many of us who are experienced engineers, quite a few of us are also accomplished musicians...Some of us, myself included, actually have a formal background in music training/performance...
Regards, Papa CLICK HERE for a link to support for SONAR 8.5 CLICK HERE to view a list of video tutorials... CLICK HERE for a link to Getting Started with Session Drummer 3...
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bitflipper
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Re:Recording BEFORE Measure 1 ?
May 04, 10 10:54 AM
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My kneejerk reaction was that, from a programming standpoint, offering the ability to renumber measures ought to be a piece of Cake.
Then I thought about for 5 more seconds, and realized that such a change could be a much bigger deal that you might imagine. The kind of "simple" change that destabilizes the code for months.
Think about how many places in the program measures are referenced, such as the Paste and Split dialogs. Think about the ramifications of importing Broadcast Wave files. How would it affect CAL scripts? Groove clips? Where do your markers go when you redefine the base measure? Do audio clips automatically slide over to follow?
I'm not surprised they're in no hurry to jump on this one.
Still, it would be a nice feature.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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rbowser
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Re:Recording BEFORE Measure 1 ?
May 04, 10 11:14 AM
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Yes, it would be a nice feature. Meanwhile, we have the choice to focus on our music, our work, or give energy to the things that annoy us and distract us from that.
I too would enjoy having a piece's measures always match the numbers in Sonar's time line. Maybe at some point all the complications to achieve that will be figured out. That would be nice. Until then - >shrugs<.
rbowser
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Jimbo 88
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Re:Recording BEFORE Measure 1 ?
May 04, 10 11:18 AM
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Hey Bitlipper, you are way smarter about this than I, but I think it may be way easier. The program itself would not change, Sonar does not need to think that there are neg measures, but just the display of the measure numbers in the track view could be programed to slide. Wouldn't you just need to translate the graphic number on the screen? So Sonar's measure 1 shows up in the track view and edit views transposed to the user defined measure number. Isn't that doable?
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Jimbo 88
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Re:Recording BEFORE Measure 1 ?
May 04, 10 11:42 AM
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Everytime I have a lead sheet or score to input into Sonar I have to take a pencil and re-number all the measures. This is time consuming and does defile the score. If a measure gets added or deleted or I make a mistake it turns into a big mess.
Recording a score for picture with live musicians I always have to make sure that everyone knows we are starting at measure 5 (or whatever number) and not 1. If I don't pay attention to this and find a way to "trick" the score someone will blow the 1st cue coming in at the wrong place.
Just a simple thing that could really save a lot of effort.
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bunnyfluffer
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Re:Recording BEFORE Measure 1 ?
May 04, 10 12:22 AM
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rrrrg. wow. seriously... this feature doesn't exist. grrrrr.
I thought I was just overlooking it...
I'd pay for this alone in an update.
thanks everyone.
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edentowers
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Re:Recording BEFORE Measure 1 ?
May 04, 10 12:39 AM
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What might appear to be a simple change to the user interface possibly requires a massive amount of re-coding. Much will depend on the way that Sonar has been coded and decisions that were made long ago. If 8.5.3 still depends on compromises that existed in V1.00 then I can understand why Cakewalk have been reluctant to take this issue further. On the other hand Sonar might be a properly implemented object-oriented application, with good separation between methods and their attributes. In that case it should be easier to work on the classes that change the measure number. But then again if the measure number itself is what is used to make other classes do what they need to then we have what is termed a closely coupled design, which is a bad thing. As classes then depend on something else to run their methods, and it's easy to have knock on effects thoughout the software. I've tried not to be too waffly but it's difficult with this subject. Phil BA (Hons) System Analysis (Just in case you think I'm making it all up )
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wst3
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Re:Recording BEFORE Measure 1 ?
May 04, 10 1:03 PM
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Not to get picky, but am I the only one that thinks the timeline becomes quite useless if you have to resort to work-arounds to address the inability to have an offset?
Generally speaking I avoid issues like this, but this one is just so incredibly brain-dead that it is annoying. Yes, I use the work-arounds, in fact my "standard" work flow includes two dead measures, and I always subtract two from whatever number appears on the timeline and/or clock, but dang, that's just silly!
Bit is right, I would expect that the numbers go far beyond simple labels, and changing this now would require changes all the way down to the audio engine level, and I'm sure that won't be fun. BUT, if they had addressed this back in the days of CWPA9, which is my earliest recollection of hearing about it, well, they'd be done!
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bitflipper
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Re:Recording BEFORE Measure 1 ?
May 04, 10 1:25 PM
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Wouldn't you just need to translate the graphic number on the screen? So Sonar's measure 1 shows up in the track view and edit views transposed to the user defined measure number. Isn't that doable?
That was my initial thought, too: that it's just a display issue. But then I remembered that the timeline isn't the only place those values appear. There are a number of places where you can enter measure:beat:tick values, such as when splitting a clip. All of those would have to translate to and from the internal representation. Whether or not this is a big deal depends on the internal structure of SONAR's code. My guess is that the timeline is already physically different from the public views of it. It's likely a tick-count offset that already has to be modified for display. If there is a single common function that translates the internal timeline for display, then it's possible that a simple offset value could be added. You'd still have other issues to deal with, though, such as calculating where Broadcast Waves get dropped into the project.
post edited by bitflipper - May 04, 10 1:28 PM
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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Shane_B.
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Re:Recording BEFORE Measure 1 ?
May 04, 10 2:43 PM
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papa2005
ivanSC
The problem we have here is engineers trying to discuss matters musical with musicians.
We dont speak the same language or even think the same.
I must disagree...Of the many of us who are experienced engineers, quite a few of us are also accomplished musicians...Some of us, myself included, actually have a formal background in music training/performance...
Oh boy ... here we go ... LOL :)
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papa2005
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Re:Recording BEFORE Measure 1 ?
May 04, 10 2:51 PM
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Shane_B.
papa2005
ivanSC
The problem we have here is engineers trying to discuss matters musical with musicians.
We dont speak the same language or even think the same.
I must disagree...Of the many of us who are experienced engineers, quite a few of us are also accomplished musicians...Some of us, myself included, actually have a formal background in music training/performance...
Oh boy ... here we go ...
LOL :)
And by that you mean...?
Regards, Papa CLICK HERE for a link to support for SONAR 8.5 CLICK HERE to view a list of video tutorials... CLICK HERE for a link to Getting Started with Session Drummer 3...
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Shane_B.
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Re:Recording BEFORE Measure 1 ?
May 04, 10 3:36 PM
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papa2005
Shane_B.
papa2005
ivanSC
The problem we have here is engineers trying to discuss matters musical with musicians.
We dont speak the same language or even think the same.
I must disagree...Of the many of us who are experienced engineers, quite a few of us are also accomplished musicians...Some of us, myself included, actually have a formal background in music training/performance...
Oh boy ... here we go ...
LOL :)
And by that you mean...?
Oh nothing. :)
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Grem
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Re:Recording BEFORE Measure 1 ?
May 04, 10 5:22 PM
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Shane_B.
Oh nothing. :)
Good answer! LOL
Grem
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bunnyfluffer
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Re:Recording BEFORE Measure 1 ?
May 04, 10 7:05 PM
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where is the official place to make/log a feature request?
this is #1 on my short list, of 1 feature requests...
thanks
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Grem
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Re:Recording BEFORE Measure 1 ?
May 04, 10 7:44 PM
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Grem
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