mastering question

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shawn912
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2009/07/05 18:47:03 (permalink)

mastering question

i just exported some projects to mp3 and the amplitude is low compared to other mp3s. i figured i just needed to normalize them but looking at the files i can see the transients on the drum beats are the problem (mainly snare hits). the drums sound about right though and i don't notice any distortion if i boost the files into the red zone. is it okay to do this, or is there a simple fix using an equalizer so i don't have to go back through the projects and remix them all? i don't know much about mastering but i have a wav editor and T-racks.
post edited by shawn912 - 2009/07/05 19:00:13

Sonar 8.5 and X1, Windows 8, Intel i7, 8 GB RAM
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    JavaMan
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    RE: mastering question 2009/07/05 19:27:19 (permalink)


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    post edited by JavaMan - 2009/07/05 19:39:35
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    Kim Lajoie
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    RE: mastering question 2009/07/05 22:23:22 (permalink)
    Your interests, this may be relevant to them.

    And this. And this.

    -Kim.

    post edited by Kim Lajoie - 2009/07/05 22:34:57
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    shawn912
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    RE: mastering question 2009/07/06 20:42:05 (permalink)
    Thanks. The limiter trick worked pretty well. On a couple songs I had to max out the initial gain to match the loudness of the reference tracks. which resulted in a little distortion but not a big deal. So from now on should I just set the drum levels lower (or everything else higher) before mixing down? Or will I lose some of the oomph? Or is the limiter effectively nerfing the oomph anyway, in exchange for the slight distortion I'm hearing?

    BTW does anyone happen to know what the time length of a typical snare hit is? It would help me figure out where to set the release time on the limiter.
    post edited by shawn912 - 2009/07/06 20:56:00

    Sonar 8.5 and X1, Windows 8, Intel i7, 8 GB RAM
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    Kim Lajoie
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    RE: mastering question 2009/07/06 22:56:41 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: shawn912

    Thanks. The limiter trick worked pretty well. On a couple songs I had to max out the initial gain to match the loudness of the reference tracks. which resulted in a little distortion but not a big deal. So from now on should I just set the drum levels lower (or everything else higher) before mixing down? Or will I lose some of the oomph? Or is the limiter effectively nerfing the oomph anyway, in exchange for the slight distortion I'm hearing?


    Mixing and mastering are two different activities (despite some apparent crossover in tools). If you're happy with the drum level in the mix, don't change it just for the sake of mastering. You also shouldn't be getting any distortion (slight or otherwise) simply by boosting the gain. If you're running out of headroom, you need to review your gain staging. If you're mastering in a DAW like Sonar, try taking an approach of boosting the gain at the front end of the channel, and reducing the gain (possibly by a similar amount) on the mix bus just before it hits the soundcard. That way you'll still have plenty of monitoring headroom and allow you to work at comparative levels without affecting sound quality. Just remember to reset the mix bus gain to unity before you render!

    ORIGINAL: shawn912

    BTW does anyone happen to know what the time length of a typical snare hit is? It would help me figure out where to set the release time on the limiter.


    There is no typical. I suggest you tune it by ear.

    -Kim.
    #5
    shawn912
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    RE: mastering question 2009/07/06 23:52:05 (permalink)
    The thing about the mixdowns is that if you look at them in a wav editor the peaks on the snare hits are at 1/-1 while the rest of the mix is around .5/-.5, so I'm thinking maybe the drums actually are out of whack, but no one that's listened to them seems to think they're too loud either, so I don't know what to make of it.

    Can you say more about the gain staging? Here's what I'm doing now. I have the mixdowns and references on separate tracks in Sonar. I'm using T-Racks3 plugin on the mixdown track and I have a simple chain set up in it: eq > limiter > eq (I don't have just a gain option, so I'm using the eq output for that). I have the limiter set to 0db and I'm adjusting the gains like you suggested to match the references. This worked great for most of the songs (they were around 12 db lower than the references) but a couple of the songs I had to boost the first eq all the way to 18db and that's where I noticed some distortion (it's the bass, mostly--sort of sounds like I'm using distortion fx on the bass track).

    Sonar 8.5 and X1, Windows 8, Intel i7, 8 GB RAM
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    gamblerschoice
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    RE: mastering question 2009/07/07 01:17:32 (permalink)
    Gain staging as a concept simplified...Track levels are the first stage, keep them low, you are not trying to get them to the loudest point at this stage. Then, tracks are grouped into busses, the second stage, and since volume is cumulative, this level will be higher than the individual tracks, so you may actually need to drop the levels in the tracks to keep these busses low, because, you may be grouping busses into other busses, or at the very least they will be going to the master buss, the third stage. All of the busses will add together in the master, volume is cumulative.

    Back at the track level, when adding an effect, this is an add to the gain staging sequence, most effects will add volume. Gain stage 1a. If you add an effect in the buss, gain stage 2a.

    This is meant as an explanaition, not a "how to", of what the term means only. Hope it helps without doing more harm than good, there are others who are so much better at the explanaition thing, but I figured I'd give it a shot.

    Later
    Albert

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    #7
    Kim Lajoie
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    RE: mastering question 2009/07/07 04:14:03 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: shawn912

    The thing about the mixdowns is that if you look at them in a wav editor the peaks on the snare hits are at 1/-1 while the rest of the mix is around .5/-.5, so I'm thinking maybe the drums actually are out of whack, but no one that's listened to them seems to think they're too loud either, so I don't know what to make of it.


    As far as the mix goes, use your ear. It's gotta sound good.


    ORIGINAL: shawn912

    Can you say more about the gain staging? Here's what I'm doing now. I have the mixdowns and references on separate tracks in Sonar. I'm using T-Racks3 plugin on the mixdown track and I have a simple chain set up in it: eq > limiter > eq (I don't have just a gain option, so I'm using the eq output for that). I have the limiter set to 0db and I'm adjusting the gains like you suggested to match the references. This worked great for most of the songs (they were around 12 db lower than the references) but a couple of the songs I had to boost the first eq all the way to 18db and that's where I noticed some distortion (it's the bass, mostly--sort of sounds like I'm using distortion fx on the bass track).


    A "gain stage" is any point in the signal path where gain is applied - where volume can be changed. Gain can be positive (makes the sound louder), negative (makes the sound quieter), or unity (doesn't change the volume - but it's still a gain stage!). "Gain staging" is the awareness that there are all these gain stages, and it's important to carefully adjust each one so that each processing stage is operating optimally. This means balancing headroom and noise floor to keep the audio as clean as possible. Noise floor is less of an issue in professional digital systems (especially all-software systems such as DAWs), but headroom is still critically important - even more so in today's loudness war.

    The distortion you're hearing might be coming from the limiter, not the gain stage. Bypass the limiter and see if the distortion is still occurring. If it is, that means it's coming from somewhere else in the signal chain. If the limiter is causing the distortion, you are applying too much gain. Reduce the gain, or apply EQ or compression to reduce the headroom (the difference between the peak and average levels) required by the audio. See my posts and articles linked earlier in this thread for more detailed explanations of the concepts.

    My mastering gain stages (within the DAW) are as such:
    (disk file) (no offline gain is applied) ->
    Static gain (This is to bring the audio up to levels comparable to my reference material. After this stage, the audio regularly peaks over 0dBfs, but no clipping occurs because the audio engine operates in 32 bit float format) ->
    EQ (This shapes the tone of the audio so that it is comparable to my reference material. The EQ's built-in gain is adjusted so that the perceived level is not changed) ->
    Limiter (This reduces the peaks that exceed 0dBfs. These days I'm using a blend of clipping and gain reduction) ->
    Channel gain (parallel to the other channels with my reference material. At this stage the audio should have the tonal and dynamic characteristics of the reference material. All channels are set to unity.)
    (Mix bus) (No gain stages here - just a couple of analysers, but I hardly use them) ->
    Master fader (This usually applies massive negative gain because every further gain stage to my monitors is at unity)

    Notice two things:
    1) My monitors are at unity. That means they're REALLY LOUD (turned up to maximum - no attenuation). That gives me more headroom than I'll ever need. I only ever need to reduce headroom when I'm mastering.
    2) I don't use any compressors/exciters/wideners/superawesomeifiers in mastering. Mastering is not about sound. It's a technical process that prepares a song for distribution. The sound needs to be right in the mix.

    -Kim
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    Bristol_Jonesey
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    RE: mastering question 2009/07/07 06:00:18 (permalink)
    BTW does anyone happen to know what the time length of a typical snare hit is? It would help me figure out where to set the release time on the limiter.


    Should be fairly easy to measure it yourself! You've got the waveform of a snare hit in front of you right?
    Set your time ruler to SMPTE and read it off.

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    thepogue
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    RE: mastering question 2009/07/15 19:34:02 (permalink)
    good stuff here..
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