Sonar Burned CD Volume Versus Commercial

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Goldtop56
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Re: RE: Sonar Burned CD Volume Versus Commercial 2010/01/06 01:01:06 (permalink)
The problem is that the public no longer cares about great sound anymore.  I still have my huge vintage JBL/Crown system which is still amazing.  Folks used to bring over new albums over just to listen to this monster.  Now they are happy with their MP3s and a couple of 5" car speakers.  Nobody cares anymore, so you have to at least fight the fight on some level with current commercial levels.  Just make sure you keep a good low level copy for yourself. 
#31
ry65
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Re:Sonar Burned CD Volume Versus Commercial 2010/01/09 18:30:25 (permalink)
Save it as a wave file, but if you want to make a CD, just use 16 bite. If you want to master down to a CD, there is a very good program that will space your songs and make the level of volume all the same. It is called  Cyberlink DVD Gold. I have burned many with this program, and they come out perfect.


#32
wgpicker
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Re:Sonar Burned CD Volume Versus Commercial 2010/02/28 17:58:53 (permalink)
I had the same problem and it took me years to figure out some simple things.  I am using Cakewalk Home Studio 2004 so maybe some things have changed but here is what I found.  When I have my mix ready, I run Process/Audio/Normalize which is supposed to make it as loud as possible without clipping.  If I then raise the gain in the track, the meters indicate clipping.  But if I run Process/Audio/3dB Louder it makes it louder without clipping.  I can repeat this a few times until the meters stay solid red but still don't clip.  How? Why?  Is there a built in limitter in that function?  Dunno, it just seems to work and I can produce output levels just as high as any of my store-bought CDs without distortion.
 
I do some compression on some of my tracks but not very much overall.  I discovered that the Process/Audio Effects/Compressor does not do what it is set for.  It does whatever the previous settings were.  So I have to run it, undo it, and run it again to get the effect of the current settings.
#33
gamblerschoice
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Re:Sonar Burned CD Volume Versus Commercial 2010/02/28 23:31:57 (permalink)
Of all of the suggestions/comments so far in this thread, I would caution very strongly against the previous post (#33).

There are so many things that could be said, I'll but just let it go. Suffice to say, do not follow this advice. Most here do not need the warning, but to those looking for help, do not do this at home.

Later
Albert

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http://www.gamblerschoice.us/



He's a walking contradiction,
partly truth and partly fiction, takin' every wrong direction on that
lonesome road back home.
#34
Guitarhacker
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Re:Sonar Burned CD Volume Versus Commercial 2010/03/01 08:47:35 (permalink)
I kinda read some of the posts...and skipped most of them....

Can I tell you how I do it?

We'll start at the beginning.

Get your tracks full sounding with strong wave forms. I will not hesitate to normalize a small wave form in a track.
Get the mix right...levels and such.
Insert OZONE 4 into the master buss and select a nice preset...then customize it to your liking...SAVE IT to a new preset name.
Export the song to a wave on the desktop.
Open it in a wave/mp3 editor like Audacity or (my favorite) Wavepad. Look at the wave form in the window. You should have a waveform that does not have a "brick" appearance to it.... it should look like a wave with only the highest peaks compressed. Now... in that window... if teh wave does NOT fill the screen from top to bottom the output level was low..... so use the normalize function IN the editor to normalize the final wave file. Save it, convert it to 320bit mp3 and you're all set.
The final file should still have plenty of dynamic range and still be loud enough to stand side by side with an average commercial release.

The picture below is the result of this process as I have described above. Notice just the very peaks are compressed. This song is plenty loud....and sounds pretty good too. 


Hear it >>>>   Earn A Living



post edited by Guitarhacker - 2010/03/01 09:05:26

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#35
gamblerschoice
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Re:Sonar Burned CD Volume Versus Commercial 2010/03/01 10:08:26 (permalink)
A truly beautiful wave form, Herb. The peaks are at their maximum, with points, not shaved off tops, plus evidence of dynamic movement. Truly a work of art.

In all of my final wave forms, I have places where the wave comes up to maybe half the height for as long as half a minute or more, and in the loudest sections the peaks will only come up to 3/4 of the distance of full height. But this is done on purpose, as I have signed out of the loudness war. This is one of the reasons I never use normalize functions, nor do I touch the brick wall limiter options. Of course, most of the music I work with is of a more classical genre, but even in the rock or blues stuff there are low points and no full height peaks.

I guess I just don't subscribe to the "louder is better" hype, and I make no excuses. I do listen to music at a high volume level, I just allow the amp built into my radio/cd player, or the 100 watt per channel amp in the studio to acheive that volume.

Not looking to start the volume war/argument up again, just expressing an opinion. And, as with all subjects where opinion comes into the discussion, there is no real right or wrong, just differences of opinion. As Pepe LePue says, "Viva le difference"

Later
Albert 

http://www.showcaseyourmusic.com/lothlorienfantasy
http://www.gamblerschoice.us/



He's a walking contradiction,
partly truth and partly fiction, takin' every wrong direction on that
lonesome road back home.
#36
jamesg1213
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Re:Sonar Burned CD Volume Versus Commercial 2010/03/01 12:27:34 (permalink)
wgpicker


I had the same problem and it took me years to figure out some simple things.  I am using Cakewalk Home Studio 2004 so maybe some things have changed but here is what I found.  When I have my mix ready, I run Process/Audio/Normalize which is supposed to make it as loud as possible without clipping.  If I then raise the gain in the track, the meters indicate clipping.  But if I run Process/Audio/3dB Louder it makes it louder without clipping.  I can repeat this a few times until the meters stay solid red but still don't clip.  How? Why?  Is there a built in limitter in that function?  Dunno, it just seems to work and I can produce output levels just as high as any of my store-bought CDs without distortion.
 
I do some compression on some of my tracks but not very much overall.  I discovered that the Process/Audio Effects/Compressor does not do what it is set for.  It does whatever the previous settings were.  So I have to run it, undo it, and run it again to get the effect of the current settings.


There's absolutely no need to run 'process-audio..' anything. That's a destructive process, and can't be undone once you hit 'save'. Compressors can be added to the tracks fx bin, or to busses, and adjusted at any time.

 
Jyemz
 
 
 



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#37
Guitarhacker
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Re:Sonar Burned CD Volume Versus Commercial 2010/03/01 13:30:40 (permalink)
Thanks Al... that's the type of wave I try to shoot for... sometimes it is a bit more compressed but I will go back in if it's too bad and "turn some things down" to acceptable levels.


James... I don't automatically say grab some audio FX compressor.... but I do normalize just about everything. Either in the tracks and or in the final editor.  I've never had one person comment that my mixes are "compressed" sounding.  You do have to be careful and use judgment when applying any effect to music.

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#38
jamesg1213
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Re:Sonar Burned CD Volume Versus Commercial 2010/03/01 15:52:08 (permalink)
Guitarhacker


Thanks Al... that's the type of wave I try to shoot for... sometimes it is a bit more compressed but I will go back in if it's too bad and "turn some things down" to acceptable levels.


James... I don't automatically say grab some audio FX compressor.... but I do normalize just about everything. Either in the tracks and or in the final editor.  I've never had one person comment that my mixes are "compressed" sounding.  You do have to be careful and use judgment when applying any effect to music.


Sure, I get what you're saying Herb. I was replying to 'wgpicker' about the 'process-audio' function.

FWIW I always do my top and tailing, fades etc in Wavepad, I love that little program!

For my purposes, if the songs sound good and dynamic when they're put together on a CD, and the relative volumes are the same, I don't worry too much if they're a little quieter than commercial CD's. That's what volume knobs are for..

 
Jyemz
 
 
 



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#39
Guitarhacker
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Re:Sonar Burned CD Volume Versus Commercial 2010/03/01 20:13:42 (permalink)
I had the old version of Wavepad... after my computer restore... I could not find the original install file so I had to obtain it again.... I like the new and improved version even better.  I also have Audacity but prefer the ease of Wavepad... it's a superb MP3 converter as well.

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#40
jsaras
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Re:Sonar Burned CD Volume Versus Commercial 2010/03/10 11:11:00 (permalink)
craigt


 My friend remarked that Unified Tribe could not take a CD of "Guilty" to a radio station and have it played despite the quality of the sound
 
 
 
Your friend simply does not know what he's talking about.  Radio stations add their own compressionto the material that is broadcast.  Many people do not know that compression is multiplicative, not additive.  In other words, if your mix has 3:1 compression on the bus and the radio station has a 10:1 compressor, your mix will ultimately have 10 x 3 (30:1) compression.  If you want something to sound great over the airwaves you should use minimal compression not more.  Think of your favorite songs from the 70's as you heard them over the radio...and how great it sounded.  Think about it ;-D 
 
If you wanna be the loudest song on an iPod, that's a whole other discussion.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

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#41
wgpicker
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Re:Sonar Burned CD Volume Versus Commercial 2010/08/14 20:58:36 (permalink)
Lighten up guys, it's only rock'n'roll!  I did not think I was saying anything so controversial as to elicit such derisive responses to my comments; I shall reply in kind! 
 
First of all, once you save (and close) a file you cannot undo many things like cut, paste, delete, etc so if you're smart, you save the original tracks (documents, pictures, whatever.) and experiment with copies.  "Do not do this at home"?  I'm pretty sure you can't hurt yourself so don't let such negative remarks stifle your creativity; try everything and see what happens.  I agree that using the track Fx is a good way to do things and I
use them all the time.  But once you have them set the way you like and you mixdown or export audio, don't you end up with the same thing?
 
As for music, it's (usually) better if you can actually hear it.  Seriously, I am in complete agreement that there is entirely too much emphasis on loud instead of good sound these days and that is not my objective.  I use a lot of vintage, retro equipment to get an authentic, organic sort of sound.  Ok, I'm a cheapskate who uses any old junk that still works and judging from the gear lists that I see posted on some other threads, I am doing this on a shoestring budget so I would be happy with results that would fool a casual listener with department store audio equipment.
 
To recap: my original problem was that if I record a simple acoustic guitar track, for example, being careful to keep the levels well below clipping, the recorded sound quality is superb but not very loud.  I raise the volume as far as possible using various controls (track, main, normalize) without clipping.  (My waveforms aren't quite as uniforn as Post #35 but they're not much worse.  It's a bit hard to tell because I can stretch the display
scales to make it look better or worse.  Maybe the seemingly small differences are actually significant.)  Then I export to .wav, burn to cd, put it in my stereo and find that the volume is literally half that of any commercial cd I have of similar music.  That is not right.  That is not because I am a hoity-toity audiophile who refuses to raise the track
volume because it might cause a millionth of a percent THD (never mind the nonlinearites introduced by cranking the volume knob to 100% not to mention signal-to-noise ratio or what happens when you forget to turn it down again before putting a normal cd in ...).  It is becasue my software/hardware is not using the full capacity it should have.  If my old
cassette played back half the volume it recorded and I posted that on a forum and got replies like "that's what volume controls are for", I would not consider them very intelligent.  I would hope for suggestions like "try a new tape" or "clean the heads".  I expected such insight from some Home Studio gurus... but I digress...  So I had assumed that the 3db louder process would be the same.  I finally tried it anyway and was suprised to find it made the volume louder without clipping like all the other methods
did.  I can hardly hear any audible difference, if any at all, in the sound quality and I have good headphones and it's easy to hear any distorion on a classical guitar track.  What does that function do differently than the others?  After experimenting some more, I have to assume it is applying some compression but there is no explanation in the Help file and apparently no way of adjusting the parameters.  It does seem to do it "gently" and the result does not sound "squished".  So say what you will, it worked like a charm on some of my tracks.  If nothing else, it proved that the low volume originates with my HS tracks and not somewhere else in the whole system like the cd burner.
 
I recently purchased Wavelab Studio for cd mastering and obtained even better results using its Loudness (not Level) Normalize process.  That process does use compression and allows you to adjust the settings.  I avoid compression on acoustic tracks because it changes the sound, but Wavelab can do it very subtly and and I have been able to achieve a reasonable volume with very little loss of sound quality.
 
"Forget about your laundry, forget about your job. Just crank up the volume and yank off the knob."--Wierd Al
#42
cho_drummer
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Re:Sonar Burned CD Volume Versus Commercial 2010/09/02 08:08:03 (permalink)
this thread seems to be like hitting your head against a brick wall (pun intended).

The very simple answer to the initial question is, you've done nothing to master your song.

The example song in sonar is not mastered, neither is your song.

Stop trying to reach the levels of commercial CDs. If you don't have the money to sink into an amazing room which is totally flat and a number of different speakers, high and low end, then a ton of outboard gear and great plugins...forget about getting your track to the level of a CD.

Now, we've established that you won't achieve your goal easily and without investment, lets look at what you can address.

Record things well, in a good room with good perfomances and your mix will sound better.
Create a mix which fills the frequency spectrum evenly. IF you want to master things more easily, your mix should be flatter across the frequency spectrum, obviously, it'll need to sound good, but i'm talking about 1-3db cuts/boosts across the board. I found that my mixes tend to be a lot louder in the 100-125Hz area and drop off after about 10kHz, that's down to how i hear things, but, whilst still trying to keep this breif, its better to attenuate the frequencies that pop out as obviously louder so that you have an even mix across the spectrum. The reason for this is simple and i'll explain it in simple terms. If you have a big box and a small box, and a ceiling above them, the big box is closer to the ceiling than the little one. Your aim is to push the boxes up to reach the ceiling...the big one will get to the ceiling first and you can't push the small one up anymore. So what you need to do is even out the two boxes, chop a bit off the big one and put a bit more onto the small one then push them up and they'll be closer to the ceiling, more often.

That's essentially what you're doing in commercial mastering these days. Getting the peaks to be consistantly at 0db for longer.

Now, you have a more even mix so that helps. Next you can begin mastering it.

Here's what i do.
I put a compressor with a really short attack and release time on the mix, i do this to catch the peaks. usually at 2:1 or 3:1 and a pretty high threshold, really what you're doing is limiting the highest peaks. (FYI all a compressor is doing is reducing the dynamic range, which is why it gives percieved loudness).

Next i'll use a frequency analysis and find any sharp peaks or troughs in the spectrum and EQ them out, similar to what i was saying before but less broadband, it's important to listen here too, i tend to find myself adding more high end here it depends on your ears really.

Then i'll use a multiband compressor, hopefully i've found any frequencies that really stick out by now and compressed them in the mix, but now is a chance to do that. However, i use the multiband compressor so that i can tailor the compression for the frequency band i'm working with. As a general rule, i'll use slower attacks on the lower frequencies and faster on the higher ones. Its also easier to compress the low end a bit harder which tends to give you a full consistant bottom end but keeps the top end bright and open sounding, that's what i go for anyway, so i have the percived loudness but don't come out with an overcompressed mix.

Next, i'll add another compressor, this is just a light final compression that tidies everything up, slow attack and release, highish threshold and abut 1.5:1 or 2:1, sometimes less.

Penultimatly i use a convolution reverb, VERY lightly to tie it all together, if you hear it, it's too much.

Now, your mix is pretty much there, i usually use a volume maximiser here, you shouldn't need to do much of it, if you've mastered it right.

So that's it. It will not sound like the pro's but it'll be a damn good start, if you do it right.

General rule of thumb is this...if you hear the effect, you've done too much.

Chris.
#43
anniedog
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Re:Sonar Burned CD Volume Versus Commercial (options) 2010/09/21 06:11:51 (permalink)

 When one spends hours writing, arranging, tracking , editing  and mixing a project. Why would they let it be mastered with any less care ? Mastering is a totally different art form  and requires a totally different skill set  than the previous tasks.  It requires the proper acoustically designed  room, talented mastering ears, and equipment. All of these are out of the price range and abilities of  the majority of home based studios. Even the big guys use mastering houses. If you want to sell the product it has to compete with the best. As said in a previous post  If the material is just for you and your friends and family or for ideas, master it at home. 
     FYI  Abbey Road Studios offers mastering via  transfer  of media over the internet and  their prices seem reasonable . They have their own transfer guidelines and instructions. They will also give suggestions on how best to prepare your mix to be mastered. They can master to many mediums. They say they use the same gear and mastering engineers that they use as if you were in house with them. I have not sent any material to them yet but I plan to. Check them out . website can be found by searching Abbey Road Studios. Great Web site. They have a live web cam of  the  zebra crossing and lots of pictures inside the  studios , control rooms and mastering suite .with gear lists for each. There is also an online shop.

Please note: I do not work for or have any connections or associations with Abbey Road Studios, I just thought the on line mastering idea was a great affordable option to be offered by such a famous studio with their facilities, talent, equipment and history.  I  also like looking at the studio pictures while I day dream.
#44
Thatsastrat
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Re:Sonar Burned CD Volume Versus Commercial 2010/10/03 19:28:49 (permalink)
Craig T,
Take the mixed down wave files you have talked about and open Sonar and create new project. In the selection box that opens to ask what type of project you want, nornal, 16 track, 4 track, and so on, there is a selection called stereo mastering that can be selected in Sonar 8. Pick that as your selection and import or drag and drop your mixed wave file into the project. You will find on the master buss a group of plug-ins already set-up for you. Start with this and play around to try and get the results you are looing for. When you get meter levels you think you like, export the audio and give a listen. If you don't like it delete the exported wave file and start over. This is the begining. Don't try to do everything you want in the mixing process alone. The process is tracking first, then mixing, export out to a stereo wave file, import back into Sonar to have a go at the mastering process. 

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#45
wgpicker
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Re:Sonar Burned CD Volume Versus Commercial 2010/10/28 19:41:54 (permalink)
if you hear the effect, you've done too much

 
I have found that to be very true.  I have probably been trying to do too much at once and over-compensating.  Subtle corrections can have a large effect on the finished product.  I have been following a somewhat similar process to what you describe and using Wavelab for "mastering" for a while now and with practice and perserverance have produced excellent results.
#46
wgpicker
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Re:Sonar Burned CD Volume Versus Commercial 2011/09/23 19:54:46 (permalink)
Here is another quirk of Cakewalk Home Studio 2004 I found. If I normalize a track, it plays as loud as possible without clipping and without modifying (compressing), as expected.  If I make a copy of that track and play them both back at the same time, it's too loud and the meters indicate clipping and the sound is noticeably distorted, as expected.  But if I mixdown the two tracks, the resulting new track is much louder but there is no clipping or distortion.  HS4 is automatically compressing or limiting or something but again there is no explanation in the Help file or manual that I can find.  If I push it too far (like using 3 copies) it gets clipped but by adjusting the gains of the source tracks I can get a final volume and sound quality comparable to any of my commercial CDs.
#47
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