wiplala
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S/PDIF vs. analog out
Hi, I have a question regarding S/PDIF and analog out. I am sure it's probably a FAQ but I didn't manage to find any answer yet. What I (shall soon) have: - a computer w. integrated sound card
- Behringer MS40 monitors with S/PDIF input
- Sonar with soft synths
- MIDI keyboard.
My question is: does the sound card what I use matter at all if I shall use the S/PDIF between te monitors and computer and all the D/A happens outboard anyway. Occasionally I also want record guitar tracks too but this is irrelevant here since I have a ZOOM G2 for that (USB interface) and I dont need any other specialized A/D or D/A equipment at all. Does the sound card make _any_ difference at all here? To me it occurs that it could even be absent if I had a USB-S/PDIF interface. Or am I wrong here? Cheers, W.
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cliffsp8
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Re:S/PDIF vs. analog out
September 08, 09 12:23 AM
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To avoid timing problems you should use the same audio interface for both playback and recording. The consequences of not doing so could be more problematic for you than the difference between analog and s/pdif. If you use two different interfaces then their clocks will run slightly out of time with each other and what sounded in time when you are doing the recording will sound slightly out on playback, and maybe severely out if the recording is over several minutes. You may get away with it by recording in short clips but sooner or later you will want to do an extended recording. Some interfaces allow you to synchronize to an external digital source, but it is far easier to start with one that will do all you need on its own. BTW you will need to use WDM drivers to use more than one interface at a time as ASIO does not support more than one. (ASIO4ALL does, but it relies on WDM drivers to work) HTH Cliff
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Fog
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Re:S/PDIF vs. analog out
September 08, 09 2:56 PM
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wiplala, it's more the issue of lack of an asio driver (well you could try asio 4 all) that'd be the main issue.. remember not everything works with asio4all.
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foxwolfen
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Re:S/PDIF vs. analog out
September 08, 09 4:43 PM
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S/PDIF is a pass through. It will bypass the audio processing engine and ADA converters on a sound card that supports spdif (it acts like a relay). Ideally, spdif to an excellent outboard ada converter will give the best output results. Clock timings are not an issue as spdif carries the word clock information with it to ensure accurate (perfect) synch between devices. Cheers Shad
A scientist knows more & more about less & less till he knows everything about nothing, while a philosopher knows less & less about more & more till he knows nothing about everything. Composers Forum
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batsbrew
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Re:S/PDIF vs. analog out
September 08, 09 5:03 PM
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JUST AS A SIDE COMMENT... be ready to yank that integrated sound card out, and get a real sound card. many headaches will be avoided.
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cliffsp8
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Re:S/PDIF vs. analog out
September 08, 09 5:33 PM
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It is an issue if he records with the Zoom at the same time as listening to the on-board s/pdif device. The two will not be in sync. foxwolfen Clock timings are not an issue as spdif carries the word clock information with it to ensure accurate (perfect) synch between devices.
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foxwolfen
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Re:S/PDIF vs. analog out
September 08, 09 5:48 PM
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You are confusing timecode with wordclock.
A scientist knows more & more about less & less till he knows everything about nothing, while a philosopher knows less & less about more & more till he knows nothing about everything. Composers Forum
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wiplala
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Re:S/PDIF vs. analog out
September 09, 09 2:14 AM
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Hi, thanks for your replys! Does this mean that it would be best to get one proper sound card which handles everything to keep things in sync? That feels a bit of a waste because the AD conversion is already done in the ZOOM device. I had high hopes that I could use the USB interface for recording with minimum amount of trouble, cables and devices. Of course I could also use the ZOOM itself for playback while recording. But what about keyboards - will a USB midi keyboard be ok or should I think about using MIDI out with a sound card which has MIDI in? Cheers, W.
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Shadow of The Wind
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Re:S/PDIF vs. analog out
September 09, 09 2:26 AM
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The beauty of analog systems is that you can easily control volume and that there are virtually no synchronization issues. I just bought monitors with analog and digital inputs. I have an external sound card with high resolution digital ouputs, word clock in/out etc. Yet, I thought that for testing I could just connect the speakers to the digital output of my internal sound card. It worked. But, why was the level so low? I found out that in some setting of the sound card, the maximum level for the digital output was set to 50%. And, it doesn't say anywhere if I can get more than 16 bit. So, I will use the digital inputs of my monitors (especially, since they have a digital signal processor, i.e. analog input signals will be sampled anew), but not with the internal sound card... Wilko
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wiplala
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Re:S/PDIF vs. analog out
September 09, 09 4:15 AM
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Hi again, I did some experimenting with sonar and Zoom g2 and here's what I found out: The ASIO driver from ZOOM homepage (several years old) doesn't work at all in W7 and mutes the whole computer. - The ASIO4AAL driver works just fine with no audible latency (at least for me in this simple experiment, but YMMV).
- I cannot record with the ZOOM and monitor with the built in sound card, ASIO4ALL seems to be be limited to only one sound device at a time (at least in sonar).I could experiment more but I have a feeling that this is just asking for trouble.
But what I can do is to use the ZOOM itself as an output device while recording and this seems to be just fine! The only problem is that everything comes through my guitar amp but even this is ok for me, at least for time being. In the end I can do mixing with monitors with S/PDIF input. My intention is to play in some midi tracks with USB keyboard and soft synths and add drum tracks and then in the end I can add guitars with the ZOOM box. My only concern right now is if the USB keyboard is ok or not, i.e. how much latency does it have. I have already ordered an m-audio keyrig which doesn't have midi out and I am locked to USB input at the moment. I think this is quite ok setup for a DAW for a beginner or do I still have a week link somewhere? Cheers, W.
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edentowers
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Re:S/PDIF vs. analog out
September 09, 09 6:03 AM
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Why not just plug your zoom into the line in of your on-board sound card? The USB MIDI keyboard will not have any latency itself but your sound card will and you should be able to test what it's capable of by loading up one of the demo projects from the additional content DVD. If you'd asked questions here before buying we would probably have suggested a supplementary dedicated sound card/MIDI interface for Sonar.
S8PE, Dell XPS 720 (Q6600), XP Pro SP2, Edirol UA-101
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cliffsp8
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Re:S/PDIF vs. analog out
September 09, 09 10:59 AM
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No I am not. I'm referring to the fact that when you have two separate devices with their own AD/DAs, their clocks need to be sync'd together in order for any resultant recorded data to play back exactly in time. In this case there is a DA in the s/pdif speakers and a AD in the zoom box - they are not sync'd hence the timing will be out. In any case now it is a moot point as the op is using just the zoom which is the sensible solution with the kit he has. Cliff foxwolfen You are confusing timecode with wordclock.
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wiplala
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Re:S/PDIF vs. analog out
September 10, 09 4:10 AM
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edentowers Why not just plug your zoom into the line in of your on-board sound card? This is an option, of course. I guess I am just a bit stubborn and always try to get my way. It just feels a bit of a waste to do the AD - DA -AD roundtrip when the zoom can spit out a digital signal, although I understand that probably there wouldn't be much difference in quality for me anyway. I paid for that and I want to put it into use.  ANother point is that I dont have good soundcard yet where to plug it in anyway. The USB MIDI keyboard will not have any latency itself but your sound card will and you should be able to test what it's capable of by loading up one of the demo projects from the additional content DVD.
But if I used a MIDI interface on a sound card, then the signal still has to be processed by the CPU and the sound has to be generated and sent back to the card. Is there really much difference between using a USB and MIDI interfaces? If you'd asked questions here before buying we would probably have suggested a supplementary dedicated sound card/MIDI interface for Sonar.
This holds true, as it is for many things in life. But I guess the it is ok for starting up and learning things. BTW, what is the difference between a good and bad sound card? They don't usually contain any DSP-s or synths in them - so am I right if I guess that it all comes down to the quality of AD-DA converters and the number of inputs/outputs? Or is there anything else (latency, speed, etc.)? Cheers, W.
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ohhey
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Re:S/PDIF vs. analog out
September 10, 09 12:47 AM
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wiplala edentowers Why not just plug your zoom into the line in of your on-board sound card? This is an option, of course. I guess I am just a bit stubborn and always try to get my way. It just feels a bit of a waste to do the AD - DA -AD roundtrip when the zoom can spit out a digital signal, although I understand that probably there wouldn't be much difference in quality for me anyway. I paid for that and I want to put it into use. ANother point is that I dont have good soundcard yet where to plug it in anyway. The USB MIDI keyboard will not have any latency itself but your sound card will and you should be able to test what it's capable of by loading up one of the demo projects from the additional content DVD. But if I used a MIDI interface on a sound card, then the signal still has to be processed by the CPU and the sound has to be generated and sent back to the card. Is there really much difference between using a USB and MIDI interfaces? If you'd asked questions here before buying we would probably have suggested a supplementary dedicated sound card/MIDI interface for Sonar. This holds true, as it is for many things in life. But I guess the it is ok for starting up and learning things. BTW, what is the difference between a good and bad sound card? They don't usually contain any DSP-s or synths in them - so am I right if I guess that it all comes down to the quality of AD-DA converters and the number of inputs/outputs? Or is there anything else (latency, speed, etc.)? Cheers, W. Correct, now that sound cards no longer do the synth part or effects for the mix the only thing to evaluate is the sound quality both in and out. The A/D conversion is the big one if you record any analog sources but the D/A quality can affect how well you can hear things while mixing. The "free" sound cards that are included in USB devices like guitar effects and microphones are not what you would want to use. Most of them have no way to get sample rate clock in or out so you can't even use more then one at a time. The best way to set up a recording PC is with only one device for audio I/O so there is only one driver and only one sample rate clock and that clock does not have to travel down a wire. Everything else should connect to that one card via analog inputs. If you use digital I/O you would want the other device to have both in and out so you can let the main sound card be the clock still. This is not only better for sound but lets Sonar autoswitch sample rates as needed. If you have an external device with only digital out you can't do that anymore and the clock has to traval down a wire and you end up using the worst clock you own. As for MIDI remember those drivers are not connected to the audio I/O driver in any way. Even if the drivers both install at the same time and are attached to the same card they are still not related. So for example if you had a device that has both MIDI I/O and audio I/O over the same USB port you could set Sonar to ignore the audio I/O and just use the MIDI ports because those are separate drivers. The ASIO limit of one driver does not apply to the MIDI drivers, ASIO is only for audio. Getting the MIDI in to the PC is a very easy job for the computer and puts no load on it. The only part that requires some power is the sound generating (software synths). Also, the sound card or MIDI interface makes no difference with how much power software synths require it all happens inside the PC.
post edited by ohhey - September 10, 09 12:54 AM
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