Helpful ReplyHum and muddy sounding guitars

Author
justpicaname
Max Output Level: -87 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 160
  • Joined: 2004/07/14 12:20:32
  • Location: Ontario Canada
  • Status: offline
2009/09/10 18:17:30 (permalink)

Hum and muddy sounding guitars

 Hey people what's up??
Ok I've been playing guitar over 20 years, so I'm not new....But I just can't seem to get a good guitar tone. Well The tone is pretty good, but I always either have a hum I just can't get rid of AND/OR a really muddy sound in the mix.
 
 I know this is a little vague, and there are probably a millon things I'm doing wrong, but any pointers or tip would be very, very well apreciated.
 
 Here is what I'm using
John Petrucci Guitar
was using cakewalk guitar pro3, but now have switched to acid pro7
Waves GTR3 (amp sim) or somtimes I plug into my korg toneworks right into the sound card (M-Audio Revolution7.1)
I mostly use sony vst ( comperssor, EQ, NoiseGate ect....)
and I master with wavelab5 and ozone3.
 
 One note, when I have 1 guitar in the mix it sounds not too bad, but get muddy after I add 2 or more.
 
here are a few songs. If you want to have a quick listen you'll see what I mean
http://soundclick.com/share?songid=8012292
http://soundclick.com/share?songid=7920360
Thanks
#1
retrosaurus
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 39
  • Joined: 2007/02/05 22:45:09
  • Status: offline
Re:Hum and muddy sounding guitars 2009/09/10 21:00:47 (permalink)
I haven't listened to the tracks, but since you said the muddiness enters when you start layering, my first thought is "less distortion"... a lot of distortion sounds are great for solo guitar, but layered parts are usually a lot cleaner. Hope this helps.
#2
skullsession
Max Output Level: -57.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 1765
  • Joined: 2006/12/05 10:32:06
  • Location: Houston, TX, USA
  • Status: offline
Re:Hum and muddy sounding guitars 2009/09/10 21:04:00 (permalink)
Hello Steve!

I'm a big progressive rock fan from WAY back...HUGE fan of Dream Theatre, etc.  Let me be clear up front.  I dig the tunes I just listened to. Some decent creative drum programming there...etc...  And this is just my unadulterated OPINION: 

The clean sounds are decent!  But both the clean and the distortion sounds very small to me.

Even the single track stuff SEEMS to have a muddy low-mid quality to it...and no really good sustain. 
Anyway.  I personally think the sound you're looking for is gonna come from a tube amp....not some form of a pedal or sim. 

Another thing I notice is arrangement.  You're a guitarist...obviously not a bassist, eh?  It sounds as if you almost double all of the guitar parts with the bass.  This is obviously going to eat up some space where the guitar will live.

ALSO...on your reverb on the lead in song 7920360, you could probably roll out a bunch of that low end.  If you can't control the EQ of the reverb return, just slap an EQ in line after it and use it to roll out the low end.

Anyway...I like the tunes!  These are just some random thoughts as I listened!  Good luck!
post edited by skullsession - 2009/09/11 06:44:29

HOOK:  Skullsessions.com  / Darwins God Album

"Without a doubt I would have far greater listening and aural skills than most of the forum members here. Not all but many I am sure....I have done more listening than most people." - Jeff Evans on how awesome Jeff Evans is.
#3
Guitarhacker
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 24398
  • Joined: 2007/12/07 12:51:18
  • Location: NC
  • Status: offline
Re:Hum and muddy sounding guitars 2009/09/11 08:28:12 (permalink)
When you have 2 instruments (2 guitars) with the same exact frequency range, you have to "seperate" them sonically by using panning and EQ.  If you leave the EQ set the same for both, you will have muddiness from all the similar frequencies competing for the same space.  roll off the lower end of the guitars... in other words..thin them out a bit. that will give them room to breathe in the mix.

The tone sounded OK to me...I use a hardware POD2 for 99% of my stuff.

Listen to some of the commercial stuff in your genre and listen with a critical ear to the guitars.... for panning, EQ, and such. See what they are doing to keep the mix from getting muddy, then work on that in your stuff.

My website & music: www.herbhartley.com

MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW   
Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface


BMI/NSAI

"Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer 
#4
The Maillard Reaction
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 31918
  • Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
  • Status: offline
Re:Hum and muddy sounding guitars 2009/09/11 08:35:08 (permalink)
Someone has gotta say it...

There are VERY FEW unmuddy humbucker pickups.

That's why pickups with stickers that say "PAF" and stuff like that are all the rage with players that have played lots of humbucker equipped guitars.

It's not a quality or price thing... it's style choice.

Most contemporary humbuckers are designed to sound thick, meaty and muddy.

As suggested you'll need to really account for this with your arranging by making room for your individual parts.

best regards,
mike

post edited by mike_mccue - 2009/09/11 08:36:30


#5
Guitarhacker
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 24398
  • Joined: 2007/12/07 12:51:18
  • Location: NC
  • Status: offline
Re:Hum and muddy sounding guitars 2009/09/11 08:55:03 (permalink)
Excellent point on the humbuckers Mike...... that's why I love the sound of my Gibson so much.  And yeah, I have to be aware of that when I record and mix.

My website & music: www.herbhartley.com

MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW   
Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface


BMI/NSAI

"Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer 
#6
marcos69
Max Output Level: -26 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 4950
  • Joined: 2004/11/05 21:44:33
  • Location: Between my guitar and amp
  • Status: offline
Re:Hum and muddy sounding guitars 2009/09/11 10:38:44 (permalink)
Sometimes you can help reduce the mud of humbuckers by backing the pickups down from the strings.  The closer they are, the muddier the bass gets.

Mark Wessels

At CD Baby

At Soundclick
#7
justpicaname
Max Output Level: -87 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 160
  • Joined: 2004/07/14 12:20:32
  • Location: Ontario Canada
  • Status: offline
Re:Hum and muddy sounding guitars 2009/09/11 10:57:39 (permalink)
Thanks for the great advise guys.
 Yes I use humbuckers, I always have. Even in the guitars I've owned with single coil, I use Dimarzio HS3. I have Dimarzio humbuckers now, Air Norton (neck) D Sonic (bridge) and they are coil-tapped for the middle position.

 I use to use a mesa triple rectifier, sounded awesome. But now I have 4 kids and a family, so that's just not an option. I can't really use hardware, because I don't have a usb 2 port. So I'm stuck with the Waves GTR3 or the korg toneworks (footpedle processor) 

 After reading your replies, I'm think my big problem is EQ for 2 guitars, knowing how many guitars to layer(playing same part). I need to try and get the bass out of the guitar range a little more.............and I really wish I still had my Mesa/Boogie!!!!!

Do you guys have any advise on compression and noise gates??? That's where I'm losing all my sustain, and alot of tone.

Thanks again

#8
The Maillard Reaction
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 31918
  • Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
  • Status: offline
Re:Hum and muddy sounding guitars 2009/09/11 11:14:33 (permalink)
I put the guitar's compressor at the front of my pedal board then I hit an envelope filter then I go through a couple distortion boxes, a phaser, another distortion box, a chorus, and every so often another compressor (but that really brings up the noise)...

Endless sustain!!!!

Maybe you can replicate that chain in your sim?


#9
justpicaname
Max Output Level: -87 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 160
  • Joined: 2004/07/14 12:20:32
  • Location: Ontario Canada
  • Status: offline
Re:Hum and muddy sounding guitars 2009/09/11 13:01:42 (permalink)

ok I'll try something like that
 Whats a good basic setting for a compressor with a distortion guitar?
#10
batsbrew
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 10037
  • Joined: 2007/06/07 16:02:32
  • Location: SL,UT
  • Status: offline
Re:Hum and muddy sounding guitars 2009/09/11 13:59:13 (permalink)
Bill Lawrence L500L.

extremely clear humbucker, available in many strengths.
http://wildepickups.com/Wilde_Bill_s_Twin_Blades.html


but honestly, the greatest suggestion i could make, would be to going to a miced up real amp.
simple, straightforward, rewarding, fun.


Bats Brew music Streaming
Bats Brew albums:
"Trouble"
"Stay"
"The Time is Magic"
--
Sonar 6 PE>Bandlab Cakewalk>Studio One 3.5>RME BFP>i7-7700 3.6GHz>MSI B250M>G.Skill Ripjaws 4 series 16GB>Samsung 960 EVO m.2ssd>W 10 Pro
 
#11
batsbrew
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 10037
  • Joined: 2007/06/07 16:02:32
  • Location: SL,UT
  • Status: offline
Re:Hum and muddy sounding guitars 2009/09/11 14:02:06 (permalink)
my method:
running my boogie into a Palmer PDI-09, then into an attenuator (for bedroom volume all the way up to stage volume) and a 1x12 closed back cab for close micing when i CAN crank it up.

i can do midnight recording, with a raging amp wide open, with full transformer saturation capture BEFORE the attenuator, but after the Palmer.
yes, yes, yes.




Bats Brew music Streaming
Bats Brew albums:
"Trouble"
"Stay"
"The Time is Magic"
--
Sonar 6 PE>Bandlab Cakewalk>Studio One 3.5>RME BFP>i7-7700 3.6GHz>MSI B250M>G.Skill Ripjaws 4 series 16GB>Samsung 960 EVO m.2ssd>W 10 Pro
 
#12
marcos69
Max Output Level: -26 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 4950
  • Joined: 2004/11/05 21:44:33
  • Location: Between my guitar and amp
  • Status: offline
Re:Hum and muddy sounding guitars 2009/09/11 14:37:38 (permalink)
I agree, the best sound and sustain you can get is with a real tube amp.  My quality went up considerably once I start using and learned how to mic/record a real tube amp.

Mark Wessels

At CD Baby

At Soundclick
#13
mcourter
Max Output Level: -41 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 3442
  • Joined: 2006/02/27 16:57:11
  • Location: Los Angeles area
  • Status: offline
Re:Hum and muddy sounding guitars 2009/09/11 15:32:14 (permalink)
I slapped a Seymour Duncans in my cheap Epi, a Jazz in the neck, a Jeff Beck in the bridge. Very well balanced humbuckers. A noise gate can get rid of the hum but will affect the sustain. A high pass filter on the guitar tracks can help clean up some mud

A few guitars, a couple of basses, a MIDI controller, a mandolin, a banjo, a mic, PodFarm2
Unbridled Enthusiasm
 My music: www.Soundclick.com/markcourter
#14
foxwolfen
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 8256
  • Joined: 2008/03/29 23:41:47
  • Status: offline
Re:Hum and muddy sounding guitars 2009/09/11 15:43:03 (permalink)
marcos69


I agree, the best sound and sustain you can get is with a real tube amp.  My quality went up considerably once I start using and learned how to mic/record a real tube amp.


I am becoming more and more enamored with old analog. The more I record analog instruments, the more I realize that digital will never replace it for quality of tone (at least not anytime soon). Now I want tube everything. Do they make tube pianos?

Cheers
Shad

A scientist knows more & more about less & less till he knows everything about nothing, while a philosopher knows less & less about more & more till he knows nothing about everything.

Composers Forum
#15
batsbrew
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 10037
  • Joined: 2007/06/07 16:02:32
  • Location: SL,UT
  • Status: offline
Re:Hum and muddy sounding guitars 2009/09/11 15:46:04 (permalink)
well, a piano is the ULTIMATE analog instrument, eh?!
:D

Bats Brew music Streaming
Bats Brew albums:
"Trouble"
"Stay"
"The Time is Magic"
--
Sonar 6 PE>Bandlab Cakewalk>Studio One 3.5>RME BFP>i7-7700 3.6GHz>MSI B250M>G.Skill Ripjaws 4 series 16GB>Samsung 960 EVO m.2ssd>W 10 Pro
 
#16
spindlebox
Max Output Level: -49 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 2645
  • Joined: 2007/05/30 07:56:11
  • Location: Kansas City, MO
  • Status: offline
Re:Hum and muddy sounding guitars 2009/09/11 23:55:27 (permalink)
I agree with Mccourtier, HIGH PASS filters are your friend!!  I use them from 50HZ and REALLY cleaned up my guitar tracks.  I use them on lots of tracks now.  Give it a try and you'll be pleasantly surprised.


 

 
#17
justpicaname
Max Output Level: -87 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 160
  • Joined: 2004/07/14 12:20:32
  • Location: Ontario Canada
  • Status: offline
Re:Hum and muddy sounding guitars 2009/09/12 09:54:26 (permalink)
OK, thanks again for the great comments, suggetions.

 I have never tried using a high pass filter, but I'm going to.
But I don't think I have one in my vst arsinal.
 Can anyone recomend one? vst or direct-x style plug ins?
I may have one included with my acid pro, I'll check it out
#18
The Maillard Reaction
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 31918
  • Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
  • Status: offline
Re:Hum and muddy sounding guitars 2009/09/12 10:05:46 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
Almost every EQ FX will have a high pass capability.

It's standard practice to run a high pass on any source that doesn't have a fundamental down in the sub region.

In your case it's not so vital because you are recording direct... it's more common when recording in a room because the room will resonate below the source "instruments" fundamental and ADD low energy content to your recording... which you can then filter out using an EQ.

It's certainly possible for an amp sim to synthesize extraneous sub content... either by mistake or in an effort to mimic the sound of a mic'd cabinet (in a room).

In either case you simply set up a high pass and then adjust the node up and down the frequency spectrum while listening for the difference between lo end noise and your instruments tone. Cut out as much noise as possible while preserving the character of your tone.

I think it's far more likely that you need a bandpass filter in the 150Hz to 400 Hz range... that's the "mud" range.

Of course as suggested you can employ the best filter by arranging not to play too much mud in the first place.

If you still end up with muddy tracks you can try deep cuts with band pass filters and hard panning to separate the sources of mud to make them seem less muddy.

You don't want to stack up a lot of energy in the 150Hz to 400 Hz range. It makes a mess.

best regards,
mike
post edited by mike_mccue - 2009/09/12 10:07:58


#19
justpicaname
Max Output Level: -87 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 160
  • Joined: 2004/07/14 12:20:32
  • Location: Ontario Canada
  • Status: offline
Re:Hum and muddy sounding guitars 2009/09/12 10:31:33 (permalink)
Thank you, I'm going to try that
#20
jacktheexcynic
Max Output Level: -44.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 3069
  • Joined: 2004/07/07 11:47:11
  • Status: offline
Re:Hum and muddy sounding guitars 2009/09/13 11:31:46 (permalink)
spindlebox


I agree with Mccourtier, HIGH PASS filters are your friend!!  I use them from 50HZ and REALLY cleaned up my guitar tracks.  I use them on lots of tracks now.  Give it a try and you'll be pleasantly surprised.


+1. in a dense mix, when it comes to heavy distortion, you really need to get the EQ ax out and start chopping. it will sound like weak sauce solo, but when you are layering guitars, all that weak sauce adds up. distortion takes up the whole spectrum - it does not leave room for any other instruments. you really just have to kill any frequencies that aren't vital to the tone. never EQ in solo mode - always do it listening to the full mix. EQ'ing tracks in solo mode is usually a waste of time, unless you don't like the raw tone to begin with. and if that's the case, your time is better spent figuring out how to get the tone you want to disk.

- jack the ex-cynic
#21
jacktheexcynic
Max Output Level: -44.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 3069
  • Joined: 2004/07/07 11:47:11
  • Status: offline
Re:Hum and muddy sounding guitars 2009/09/13 11:36:50 (permalink)
mike_mccue


You don't want to stack up a lot of energy in the 150Hz to 400 Hz range. It makes a mess.

best regards,
mike

+1 to this too. that range is where the bass should live. all other instruments should vacate. i skimmed, so maybe someone already said this.... but in a mix, there's really only room for one instrument at any given frequency, and our ears will "fill in" the rest. so you can rip out the distortion guitars in the low mids and the bass guitar will fill them back in.


- jack the ex-cynic
#22
Ron Vogel
Max Output Level: -69 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 1074
  • Joined: 2008/07/18 14:14:40
  • Status: offline
Re:Hum and muddy sounding guitars 2009/09/13 15:56:18 (permalink)
I am finding tht layering guitars just sounds so-so anyway. 1 really good guitar sound will always sound bigger than a wall of them. I really like small amps to record with too. They sound bigger than a big amp in most cases once recorded. Maybe get yourself a little epi valve Jr, or champ and distortion pedal of choice.

I'm stuck in the past, but my foot's tapping forward 
Ron Vogel Soundclick page
#23
mcourter
Max Output Level: -41 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 3442
  • Joined: 2006/02/27 16:57:11
  • Location: Los Angeles area
  • Status: offline
Re:Hum and muddy sounding guitars 2009/09/14 12:11:04 (permalink)
Thanks, Mike, I like the bandpass tip in that range. Another tool for my mixing arsenal.

A few guitars, a couple of basses, a MIDI controller, a mandolin, a banjo, a mic, PodFarm2
Unbridled Enthusiasm
 My music: www.Soundclick.com/markcourter
#24
guitardog247
Max Output Level: -66 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 1226
  • Joined: 2004/02/29 00:06:07
  • Location: Madison, WI
  • Status: offline
Re:Hum and muddy sounding guitars 2009/09/30 16:34:03 (permalink)
I just dropped using my amp sim plug-ins and the POD toneport for recording.
Now I just use my tube amp and am so relieved, it's like a tremendous weight off!!
I just shove a SM57 right up to the grill. No tweaking necessary, instant killer guitar tone with a tube amp.

I have young children, and live in a townhouse/condo. But I do have a basement. It's unfinished with no soundproofing.  I'm able to get a decent sound with the amp at a little less than 2, and not rumbling the whole building (which I could with my 75 watt head). So I do have to "sneak-in" laying the guitar track. But I can easily do it when the kids are asleep at 8:30, because I don't need to crank the amp. And my wife just needs to turn her TV up.

So I recommend getting a small tube amp, at least a 12 inch combo, and recording in the basement when you have an oppurtinity. Then you won't believe you ever bothered with amp sims or the like.

Sonar, Les Paul Studio, FTU, puter, plugs.........
#25
Jump to:
© 2024 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1