Danny Danzi
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Lack of tech support credibility and a 64 bit os question?
I've been reading quite a bit on these forums about people not receiving tech support. Some people reporting this are credible, others....I smell crap. I was just curious as to what everyone's take was on this? I also have a 64 bit os question you'll see eventually down there. Before I get into this, a quick shout out to Song Craft and Silk Tone...
Song Craft & Silk Tone: I just wanted to say, if you NOW have direct contact with Willy, you're in great hands. He's a fantastic human being personally as well as an asset to the company. You'll have a friend and direct connection for life if you work with the guy and have a little patience. I've enjoyed both of your posts on this forum and Silk, AWESOME information as well as your midi plug bug. I hope both of you resolve your issues in full and I mean that sincerely and didn't mean to single you both out for any reason other than to wish you the best and let you know Willy really is a great dude.
Ok, this is just said in general due to things I have read on this board and got me to thinking. Have any of you guys wondered if some of the posts regarding tech support not getting back to them, are bogus? Maybe people working for another rival company that just want to make waves? The reason I ask this question is, I have been a Cake user since 4.0 on floppy disks. I have used the Cake problem reporter 3 times my entire life. I do not consider myself anywhere near as good at this program as some of you. Seriously, some of you guys blow me away with your knowledge and use of this program. But my point is, my problems have been rather minute compared to some of the stuff I've seen reported here. As Noel and Willy have mentioned, they make huge issues higher priority when reports come in but this also raises a few questions to me.
1. My first report ever was an issue with Sonar color schemes not keeping what you put in. I received a reply from the person that receives the reports letting me know it was received and that it was being looked into in less than a week. I then received an email from Willy Jones a few days after which started a really good working relationship as well as me making a new friend that also shared in some of my personal interests. This issue was later resolved in an update patch.
2. There was a serious midi bug in Sonar 8 using V Drums. I used the problem reporter, received a response from whoever checks them, and sure enough, Willy Jones replies back with an email asking me to try a few things and send him some mini dump files. The issue was resolved in 8.2 I believe and tech support got back to me in under a week.
3. I've been complaining about a gap in the punch out while arm on the fly is enabled. I read this board and heard about how there are so many that never get any type of response. I felt well, maybe Cake is slipping...I filed a report last night and had mentioned in the report that this issue was also in 8.3.1 and that Willy and I had discussed it but I had never put in an actual report on it so I was doing so in the event proper archiving of the report may have been needed. I received a message today from the person that receives the report telling me in their own words that it is being looked into and that they will make sure Willy is aware that I contacted them about it. In the same email send/receive session, low and behold a reply from Willy himself on this issue.
Now, I'm a nobody. I've not reported any issues that are life-threatening to my way of making a living. I'm just a common user that just tried to do the right thing and report an issue when I found one. My issues are petty and to be honest, though I am more than happy that Willy replied to me, what makes me and my issues so special that I have received responses? Why me and not some of the people that are claiming huge bugs? Can you see where I'm coming from? It just doesn't make sense to me how my little issues get attention that aren't super important, yet there are people on here going ballistic that tech support has not contacted them. I've been a hot-head on this board...I've insulted a few of the bakers (not maliciously or with intent) with my heated comments when some things don't work well the same as many others. Why do I get support? I sincerely believe there are liars amongst us at times that either work for Cubase or something or they just want to see some crap stirred up. Granted, I know some of you are serious users and I can tell you're real by the posts you make as well as the information you share. But there are others we don't hear from that come out of the blue and cry. Are they real or are they making false accusations? If you're me, I'm sure you can understand why I would speak this way. I guess in a sense it's like when someone is called a fanboy when the software works perfectly for them and fails for many others. I'm a fanboy when it comes to tech support because in my cases, it has worked flawlessly every time and I've gotten reponses. Only one of my reported issues is still not fixed.
Ok, a question for your 64 bit guys. I've been reading lots of stuff about how everyone wants to use all this ram. Isn't it cpu power that becomes the culprit when running softsynths? I don't quite understand what all this ram stuff is about. When I run Sonar and a bunch of plugs and VSTi's...I'm using no more than 1.5 gig of ram and I have 3 on my box. We usually freeze tracks to free up cpu...isn't this more cpu than ram when it comes to vsti's and plugs etc? I've never had a system crapout due to running out of ram...but I have had my cpu up there pretty high to where I had to freeze a load of things. What is the real deal here...can someone give me a little information please?
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bitflipper
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Re:Lack of tech support credibility and a 64 bit os question?
2009/09/22 22:13:00
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My experience with CW support has been similar, although I have to admit I've only tested them a few times. No complaints, and yes, Willy is the best.
As for the 64-bit question, I honestly don't know what the big deal is for anyone who doesn't use samplers. I think some have drunk too much of Cakewalk Marketing's koolaid.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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John
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Re:Lack of tech support credibility and a 64 bit os question?
2009/09/22 22:21:16
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keith
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Re:Lack of tech support credibility and a 64 bit os question?
2009/09/22 23:27:19
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RE: 64-bit and RAM limitations... Bit is mostly right... the big win is with "samplers". I put quotey quotes around that because samplers these days come in many forms. You could be running some Big Iron sampler like Kontakt, and streaming 10's of gigabytes of orchestral samples or mega drum samples from disk... In the case of Kontakt you have a fairly optimized sampler engine that tries to make the absolute most out of RAM resources and instead hit the hell out of your disks... On the other hand you have less mature sample platforms like EW Play -- same mega GB content libraries, but perhaps less streamlined resource usage on the RAM side (it's a relatively new sample playback platform). Regardless of sampler platform, the general rule of thumb for using those mega GB products is: the more RAM, the better.
On the other end of the spectrum you have sample playback products that load everything into RAM... I think the Spectrasonic synths are strictly RAM-based, as are products like DimPro, and some of the more popular mega drum products out there. Obviously, if you want to load up a couple of GB worth of DimPro content into a SONAR project, you're going to need the RAM to do that. A single multi-sampled instrument could be 100-200MB.
Basically, for anybody doing work with significant amounts of sample content -- either with rompler products or open samplers and libraries -- you want as much RAM as you can get your hands on and afford. If you'r primarily doing all-audio stuff -- even all-audio projects with a hundred or two hundred tracks -- your RAM requirements are modest by comparison.
The other thing with 64-bit vs. 32-bit OS is that on Win XP 32-bit the OS limits the amount of RAM that a single process can utilize, not to mention the fact that the system counts the total accessible RAM resources in use by the system against the 4GB absolute limit of addressable RAM -- this includes things like video cards and whatnot. Basically if you have a need to utilize serious amounts of RAM for manipulating digital content, you're seriously hamstrung by 32-bit Win XP... moving to a 64-bit platform allow you to both increase the physical amount of RAM beyond the 4GB absolute limit of 32-bit, plus avoids the instrinsic limitations imposed by the OS itself which needs to manage itself and the apps within the 4GB absolute limit.
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keith
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Re:Lack of tech support credibility and a 64 bit os question?
2009/09/22 23:33:09
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... and if Freddie H shows up to jump on the 64-bit discussion, everybody hide behind the couch and pretend that John lost a contact lens...
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Jose7822
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Re:Lack of tech support credibility and a 64 bit os question?
2009/09/22 23:37:58
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Hey Danny,
To be honest, I envy you in a good way because, even though I haven't had a bad experience with Cake's TS, my issues usually don't get replies as fast/often as yours do (and I report frequently, especially when I new version comes out). I just get the generic email saying they will/are looking into the matter at hand. I think I got a follow up email once or twice, but that's about it. So, either I'm good at explaing the issues, or they already know about it. However, I must say that Cakewalk ususally resolves most of them right away. That's why you'll never hear me complain about Cakewalk's TS team.
In regards to your question. People, like me, who want 64 bit to be reality want it because our projects are very RAM intensive (well, some of them, not all). Filling up 4GB of RAM is not that hard at all to achieve when you have 30+ GB of samples from just one VSTi. These are ususally the orchestral type with hundreds of articulations and a huge number of instruments. Yes, we have the option to freeze these instruments in order to save RAM and CPU cycles, but that process completely breaks the workflow because you're having to wait for the samples to load each time you unfreeze to make a change. Nevermind the freezing process itself.
The other reason is, since we wanna work in the 64 bit environment for its RAM benefits, we would also like for other plugins we use to be ported either for compatibilty reasons (in the case of DX/DXi plugs) or for better performance and system stability. It's not the same to have an intermediate process involved (i.e. Bitbridge or JBridge) than to have everything work natively. You get more stability with the latter of course.
So those are basically the reasons we'd like to work in a full 64 bit environment, and we're thankfully almost there. Hope this answers your question.
Take care man!
Intel Q9400 2.66 GHz 8 GB of RAM @ 800 Mhz ATI Radeon HD 3650 Windows 7 Professional (SP1) x64 Cubase 6.03 x64 Sonar PE 8.5.3 x64 RME FireFace 400 Frontier Design Alpha Track Studio Logic VMK-188 Plus http://www.youtube.com/user/SonarHD
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Danny Danzi
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Re:Lack of tech support credibility and a 64 bit os question?
2009/09/23 03:30:22
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Keith, Jose, thanks for the in depth replies. So it's those huge sample type programs that use all the RAM up. On my end I've never really noticed an issue there other than cpu climbing. I use quite a bit of that stuff but most times, not several instances. I use some of the big orchestra stuff, BFD 2 and all the rest are real instruments in real time and then a load of plugs. When I have checked my RAM usage though, I've never seen any more than 1.8 gig being used. That was a rather large project with a load of stuff going on, but even there I really had no issues and was able to work in real time. So if I used several instances of that orchestra stuff, I'd see a problem with what I have? I'm running 4 gig of RAM here and have never messed with that 3GB switch thing. XP is seeing 3.1 on its own here. Thanks for the replies guys, much appreciated. :)
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Freddie H
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Re:Lack of tech support credibility and a 64 bit os question?
2009/09/23 03:36:05
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First off! Lack of tech INFO/ support of 64 bit and SONAR in general. I want more indepth info about SONAR under the hood and 64bit.. I have asked Noel already to setup a place on there site for this...
post edited by Freddie H - 2009/09/23 07:58:38
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noldar12
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Re:Lack of tech support credibility and a 64 bit os question?
2009/09/23 03:43:13
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It also depends on the orchestral library (or libraries)one chooses to use.
On the one hand, a library like GPO was designed to run on a small footprint and use relatively little RAM. On the other hand, EWQLSO Platinum, and Vienna will take all the RAM you can throw at them. In general, the quality of the "big libraries" surpasses that of the "budget" libraries, though if one visits the GPO site, one can still achieve some very nice results with the budget orchestral sound libraries.
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Freddie H
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Re:Lack of tech support credibility and a 64 bit os question?
2009/09/23 03:52:53
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bitflipper
My experience with CW support has been similar, although I have to admit I've only tested them a few times. No complaints, and yes, Willy is the best.
As for the 64-bit question, I honestly don't know what the big deal is for anyone who doesn't use samplers. I think some have drunk too much of Cakewalk Marketing's koolaid.
It's all really simple. You can use your computer more efficient, run more plugins, less CPU in use.
And this is a fact, not something I made up.  Example, when I work in SONAR 64bit I use 30-50 % CPU. In SONAR 64bit and everything work fine, sounds great. If I open the same project with SONAR 32bit, I can't hardly play it. Peaks on 90-100 % CPU on different cores. Also the Kontakt 3, 32bit sample; (in SONAR 8,64bit I use the 64bit version Kontakt 3); and all other plugins that use RAM say, I have reached the limits of use of RAM. I need to mute some objects to just get it just stable to play. I use Intel Core2 Quad core Q9550, total of 16GB RAM and VISTA 64bit. If you were in my studio... you would get it Bit flipper. You are programer, you should know all this... =)  On MAC and Logic
End Conclusion Lower CPU in use = more can be done , no RAM limits. CPU scaling and Memories work more efficient in 64bit environments too Regards Freddie
post edited by Freddie H - 2009/09/23 04:00:43
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Freddie H
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Re:Lack of tech support credibility and a 64 bit os question?
2009/09/23 04:02:11
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noldar12
It also depends on the orchestral library (or libraries)one chooses to use.
On the one hand, a library like GPO was designed to run on a small footprint and use relatively little RAM. On the other hand, EWQLSO Platinum, and Vienna will take all the RAM you can throw at them. In general, the quality of the "big libraries" surpasses that of the "budget" libraries, though if one visits the GPO site, one can still achieve some very nice results with the budget orchestral sound libraries.
Exactly 
post edited by Freddie H - 2009/09/23 07:59:33
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Freddie H
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Re:Lack of tech support credibility and a 64 bit os question?
2009/09/23 04:06:31
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keith
... and if Freddie H shows up to jump on the 64-bit discussion, everybody hide behind the couch and pretend that John lost a contact lens...
Don't worry...
-Highly developed spirits often encounter resistance from mediocre minds. -It really matters!
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Jose7822
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Re:Lack of tech support credibility and a 64 bit os question?
2009/09/23 04:56:36
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Danny,
Just to give you an idea. I'm currently working on an orchestral project that's not even half-way done. So far I have 3 instances of EWQLSO Gold XP (almost fully loaded) and 1 instance of Rapture. Just 4 VSTi right. Well, so far I'm at 3.38 GB, CPU is barely at 15% and I'm still not using all the articulations I need for the string section (plus who knows how many more instruments I'll need to be satisfied with this piece). A project like this would be impossible to do on a Windows XP 32 bit system (even with the /3GB switch) unless I started freezing tracks (which, like I said earlier, is a work-flow killer).
Take care!
Intel Q9400 2.66 GHz 8 GB of RAM @ 800 Mhz ATI Radeon HD 3650 Windows 7 Professional (SP1) x64 Cubase 6.03 x64 Sonar PE 8.5.3 x64 RME FireFace 400 Frontier Design Alpha Track Studio Logic VMK-188 Plus http://www.youtube.com/user/SonarHD
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strikinglyhandsome1
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Re:Lack of tech support credibility and a 64 bit os question?
2009/09/23 05:43:00
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Most people's perspective on things will be governed by their experience.
If you feel you ask a question and it's not answered or you don't get a satisfactory answer then your opinion of support will be different to someone who did get answered and got a satisfactory answer.
I also don't see a difference between 'big' and 'small' issues. It's not up to the person who asks the question to decide if the matter is big or small. Cakewalk can make that decision and inform the person as to the priority of the request. Communication, or lack of it, as well as action is the key to support.
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wintaper
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Re:Lack of tech support credibility and a 64 bit os question?
2009/09/23 07:48:18
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64 bits also enables larger fonts in forum postings.
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strikinglyhandsome1
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Re:Lack of tech support credibility and a 64 bit os question?
2009/09/23 07:51:45
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wintaper
64 bits also enables larger fonts in forum postings.
That's actually true. I've noticed though that being in 32 bit it has no effect.
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Freddie H
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Re:Lack of tech support credibility and a 64 bit os question?
2009/09/23 07:57:14
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That's not fair! I don't use that so much frequently, Big-fonts. I try not to, so everyone can be happy here at the this forum. =) 
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re:Lack of tech support credibility and a 64 bit os question?
2009/09/23 08:33:34
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Hi bitflipper,
Its not all koolaid :) There are tangible benefits in X64 even if you are using large memory sets.
The expanded register set allows for more efficient computations and in some cases we're even finding better low latency performance in X64 than X86. Also with our ongoing optimization work inhouse and with Intel most of the original 64 bit specific hotspots we had are pretty much gone in 8.5.
Also did you know that MS originally was considering releasing ONLY an X64 version of Win7? Somewhere along the way their plans changed due to compatibility reasons no doubt, but its inevitable that in a few years X64 will be the only choice, just like 16 bit systems are gone.
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Mully
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Re:Lack of tech support credibility and a 64 bit os question?
2009/09/23 09:27:48
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DOS is king.
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Fret Wizz
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Re:Lack of tech support credibility and a 64 bit os question?
2009/09/23 12:45:03
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Jonbouy
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Re:Lack of tech support credibility and a 64 bit os question?
2009/09/23 14:39:26
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I've been reading quite a bit on these forums about people not receiving tech support. Some people reporting this are credible, others....I smell crap.
Hi Danny are you being specific to tech support or are you meaning support in general? I've never needed tech support as any questions I've had have largely been answered here by people such as yourself and even by Noel directly contributing to a thread or I've looked up a problem as being a known issue. Over the time I've been here though I've seen many complainants regarding customer support many of those regarding, missing accounts and or registrations, if you look at the queue regarding those issues regarding the 8.5 update you'll notice it's not a few anonymous crankies venting to damage Cakewalks reputation it's people having real difficulties acquiring stuff that they've purchased. 6 pages of 'em on one thread and counting. The product registration system has never worked efficiently as you'll see a long list of complaints on the same thing certainly for the last 2 years if you do a search on 'account registrations'. If you had to wait at the checkout in a store for 2 days after you'd paid for goods while the store-keeper went to retrieve your goods you'd likely never go to that store again, most people here are forgiving and good-will extends two ways, but with this particular issue trust me Cakewalk are wearing one side of that good will pretty thin. I've done all the suggested things correctly as have other 'reputable' posters here in order to flag up the issue yet my problem remains and I've yet to recieve even an acknowledgement that it is even happening (or not happening), again like many others. Sure I have a couple of people I can contact within the company that I could get to pull strings in my favour but I shouldn't have to impose on an individual employees work-flow to deal with an issue that shouldn't by any stretch of consumer rights in any land exist. Not everyone is Willy's personal chum and many customers won't have even visited this forum and I'm deliberately not contacting anyone directly to ensure that my experience is the same as the 'average' customer...and I can tell you I am not impressed currently. In fact it's a shambles frankly and I've seen plenty of companies featured on TV Consumer programmes with less to answer for than what is going on here IMO.
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SongCraft
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Re:Lack of tech support credibility and a 64 bit os question?
2009/09/23 15:11:35
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Jonbouy
I've been reading quite a bit on these forums about people not receiving tech support. Some people reporting this are credible, others....I smell crap.
Hi Danny are you being specific to tech support or are you meaning support in general?
I've never needed tech support as any questions I've had have largely been answered here by people such as yourself and even by Noel directly contributing to a thread or I've looked up a problem as being a known issue.
Over the time I've been here though I've seen many complainants regarding customer support many of those regarding, missing accounts and or registrations, if you look at the queue regarding those issues regarding the 8.5 update you'll notice it's not a few anonymous crankies venting to damage Cakewalks reputation it's people having real difficulties acquiring stuff that they've purchased. 6 pages of 'em on one thread and counting.
The product registration system has never worked efficiently as you'll see a long list of complaints on the same thing certainly for the last 2 years if you do a search on 'account registrations'. If you had to wait at the checkout in a store for 2 days after you'd paid for goods while the store-keeper went to retrieve your goods you'd likely never go to that store again, most people here are forgiving and good-will extends two ways, but with this particular issue trust me Cakewalk are wearing one side of that good will pretty thin.
I've done all the suggested things correctly as have other 'reputable' posters here in order to flag up the issue yet my problem remains and I've yet to recieve even an acknowledgement that it is even happening (or not happening), again like many others. Sure I have a couple of people I can contact within the company that I could get to pull strings in my favour but I shouldn't have to impose on an individual employees work-flow to deal with an issue that shouldn't by any stretch of consumer rights in any land exist.
Not everyone is Willy's personal chum and many customers won't have even visited this forum and I'm deliberately not contacting anyone directly to ensure that my experience is the same as the 'average' customer...and I can tell you I am not impressed currently.
In fact it's a shambles frankly and I've seen plenty of companies featured on TV Consumer programmes with less to answer for than what is going on here IMO.
I agree with you Jon It's been just over a week for me and still no resolve. Very frustrating. Also sent several Emails, posted several times on the forums, Willy Jones [CW] bluntly replied to my pm and said CW will resolve my issue soon, so again I'm still waiting and waiting!! Meanwhile I've read more positive things about Reaper on these forums, never tried it so I may just download it and see how that goes, if I like it then I suppose I have no need to wait for CW to get the act together. I always keep at least two copies of all my registrations and mostly their the same for years, thereby it's not user error. I don't have spam blocking on my Email account. I don't have issues accessing my registrations with other companies, may be on rare occassions only a slight glitch (minor) but accessing Cakewalk registration/account is really starting to get on my nerves. This issue is becoming a yearly event! For the one millionth time... Cakewalk you MUST improve the registration database once and for all or else soon some customers are going to give CW the flick. Syronara, au'revoir, adios, adieus, yasou, zegnaj, goodbye forever.
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keith
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Re:Lack of tech support credibility and a 64 bit os question?
2009/09/23 15:27:08
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Freddie H
keith
... and if Freddie H shows up to jump on the 64-bit discussion, everybody hide behind the couch and pretend that John lost a contact lens...
Don't worry...
Heh... just kidding around, Freddie... I knew you'd show up eventually... 
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