Helpful ReplyCompression - over emphasized reverb

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musicroom
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2009/09/30 15:21:03 (permalink)

Compression - over emphasized reverb

I probably had a slight problem with this before - but here is what I observed or heard recently when putting the finishing touches on a song:

1) completed song in sonar with LP64 compression added in the master buss
2) exported to 24 bit wav file and opened in SF8
3) when using my usual effects chain - the reverb I had recorded with the vox was increased when I engaged some light compression. In this case it was Voxengo's Polysquasher with the preset (which I usually love) "mix glue"
4) I turned off all compression and just left Curve Eq on the roll off some low end and have a nice song - so all is well.

But - for my enlightenment or learning... - what was happening sonically to make the reverb so prominent when compression was added?


Thanks,


 
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#1
bitflipper
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Re:Compression - over emphasized reverb 2009/09/30 16:38:47 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
Think about what compression is doing to the reverb-effected tracks: it's reducing the initial attack and emphasizing the decay. In other words, it's de-emphasizing words in the vocal while bringing up the reverb tail.




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#2
musicroom
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Re:Compression - over emphasized reverb 2009/09/30 17:32:28 (permalink)
So if I am going to try to put some finishing compression touches on a mixed song in my editor - then I need to reduce all my coloring effects during mixdown. Is that the answer?

On a side note, looking back at some of my songs that I mastered (if you can call it that) - the reverb is more prominent than I intended or heard during the mixdown. If you listen to my first song on the link - I think you can hear what I am talking about.

Thanks BF

 
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#3
jimmyman
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Re:Compression - over emphasized reverb 2009/09/30 17:35:59 (permalink)


      Bitflipper

    "Think about what compression is doing to the reverb-effected tracks: it's reducing the initial attack and emphasizing the decay. In other words, it's de-emphasizing words in the vocal while bringing up the reverb tail."

   Very well said as you always do. If the compressor was an
"auto gain" type then yes the "reverb tail" would be brought up.
However if the compressor is limiting a certain "level" then it
makes the "reverb tail" just last longer.

 I guess that's sort of one in the same huh?
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jayhill
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Re:Compression - over emphasized reverb 2009/09/30 18:10:16 (permalink)
musicroom


So if I am going to try to put some finishing compression touches on a mixed song in my editor - then I need to reduce all my coloring effects during mixdown. Is that the answer?
 
That would work.  If for some reason that is now not possible you can look at Mid/Side and gently reduce your mids/low mids on only the side channel.   That is, the finishing compression you have previously applied is reacting somewhat more to lower frequencies than higher and since most of your verb will typically occur on the sides, the above mentioned attenuation if done judiciously, can help.
 
Jayhill


post edited by jayhill - 2009/09/30 18:12:23
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musicroom
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Re:Compression - over emphasized reverb 2009/09/30 19:58:55 (permalink)

That would work. If for some reason that is now not possible you can look at Mid/Side and gently reduce your mids/low mids on only the side channel. That is, the finishing compression you have previously applied is reacting somewhat more to lower frequencies than higher and since most of your verb will typically occur on the sides, the above mentioned attenuation if done judiciously, can help. Jayhill



Should I use something like the sonakis multi-comp for that as a straight-up effect? I'm not sure how to apply side channel compression to a full mix???

Thanks,


Edit - I listened to some of your songs Jeff - well done! I enjoyed them very much!
post edited by musicroom - 2009/09/30 20:13:48

 
Dave
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#6
musicroom
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Re:Compression - over emphasized reverb 2009/09/30 20:18:01 (permalink)
Jimmy - "It isn't meant for me" - nice song.

 
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#7
jayhill
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Re:Compression - over emphasized reverb 2009/09/30 23:24:17 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
Not compression - I meant to just EQ the sides.  Msed is a freebie from Voxengo that you can use to get at the side information. 
 
Just put it on the buss in encode mode and set up 2 sends - 1 fully panned left (mid) which is sent to another buss labeled mid; and 1 fully panned right(side) which is sent to another buss labeled side.  Then output those 2 busses back to another final buss with another copy of msed in decode mode.  Go in and eq the side buss by gently dropping some low mids with a somewhat wide q - then gently bring up some volume on the side buss that was lost with the eq cut.  Don't bring up too much volume on the sides or you'll lose overall definition.
 
Jeff
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musicroom
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Re:Compression - over emphasized reverb 2009/10/01 00:49:40 (permalink)
jayhill


Not compression - I meant to just EQ the sides.  Msed is a freebie from Voxengo that you can use to get at the side information. 
 
Just put it on the buss in encode mode and set up 2 sends - 1 fully panned left (mid) which is sent to another buss labeled mid; and 1 fully panned right(side) which is sent to another buss labeled side.  Then output those 2 busses back to another final buss with another copy of msed in decode mode.  Go in and eq the side buss by gently dropping some low mids with a somewhat wide q - then gently bring up some volume on the side buss that was lost with the eq cut.  Don't bring up too much volume on the sides or you'll lose overall definition.
 
Jeff


Jeff,

This is something brand new for me to try. I can't wait to get an opportunity to hear this effect later tonight.

Thank you very much!



 
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#9
Legion
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Re:Compression - over emphasized reverb 2009/10/01 03:21:03 (permalink)
So if I am going to try to put some finishing compression touches on a mixed song in my editor - then I need to reduce all my coloring effects during mixdown. Is that the answer?


It all depends on what you are doing and the settings of the compressor. If you are using a fast attack fast release the comp will act like Bit said smoothing out the loud parts and bringing up the low, thus making low level sounds like reverb louder in relation to the other parts. What you can do is set a longer attack to let the punch through and a relase that's matched to the tempo (sometimes PDR works really well) and instead make the punch take more place and keep the lower parts in place while still somewhat have a glueing effect. Experiment with anything from 10-50 ms attack and also check the release to avoid pumping/breathing effects (you'll know it when you hear it ).

No matter what, it can be a good idea to check the sound with a comp on the 2-bus every now and then. Some people, I do it sometimes, mix with a compressor on the 2-bus from the start to the finish.



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#10
musicroom
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Re:Compression - over emphasized reverb 2009/10/01 04:20:36 (permalink)
Legion



So if I am going to try to put some finishing compression touches on a mixed song in my editor - then I need to reduce all my coloring effects during mixdown. Is that the answer?


It all depends on what you are doing and the settings of the compressor. If you are using a fast attack fast release the comp will act like Bit said smoothing out the loud parts and bringing up the low, thus making low level sounds like reverb louder in relation to the other parts. What you can do is set a longer attack to let the punch through and a relase that's matched to the tempo (sometimes PDR works really well) and instead make the punch take more place and keep the lower parts in place while still somewhat have a glueing effect. Experiment with anything from 10-50 ms attack and also check the release to avoid pumping/breathing effects (you'll know it when you hear it ).

No matter what, it can be a good idea to check the sound with a comp on the 2-bus every now and then. Some people, I do it sometimes, mix with a compressor on the 2-bus from the start to the finish.


I like this advice. By a 2-buss do you mean I should put a compressor in 2 separate busses? Sorry for all the questions, I just want to be clear. When I find the right setup, I will make a template.

Thanks,

 
Dave
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#11
musicroom
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Re:Compression - over emphasized reverb 2009/10/01 04:22:31 (permalink)
jayhill


Not compression - I meant to just EQ the sides.  Msed is a freebie from Voxengo that you can use to get at the side information. 
 
Just put it on the buss in encode mode and set up 2 sends - 1 fully panned left (mid) which is sent to another buss labeled mid; and 1 fully panned right(side) which is sent to another buss labeled side.  Then output those 2 busses back to another final buss with another copy of msed in decode mode.  Go in and eq the side buss by gently dropping some low mids with a somewhat wide q - then gently bring up some volume on the side buss that was lost with the eq cut.  Don't bring up too much volume on the sides or you'll lose overall definition.
 
Jeff


I tried this tonight and it sounded great except for one small thing - I had a ghost echo. Must be doing something wrong. I was meticulous in trying to follow your directions. But still - I know it works for you, so it must be me.



 
Dave
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#12
Lanceindastudio
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Re:Compression - over emphasized reverb 2009/10/01 05:41:15 (permalink)
so like either there is too much or the wrong kind of compression on the track, or too much or the wrong kind of reverb on the mix in a track or more...

Well that is what my crazy brain would "logiciz"

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Legion
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Re:Compression - over emphasized reverb 2009/10/01 06:29:58 (permalink)
I like this advice. By a 2-buss do you mean I should put a compressor in 2 separate busses? Sorry for all the questions, I just want to be clear. When I find the right setup, I will make a template.

Thanks,


The 2-bus is another way to say the master out, the stereo (2 chanel) bus. HTH

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jayhill
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Re:Compression - over emphasized reverb 2009/10/01 11:33:40 (permalink)
I tried this tonight and it sounded great except for one small thing - I had a ghost echo. Must be doing something wrong. I was meticulous in trying to follow your directions. But still - I know it works for you, so it must be me.

 
Probably the buss where you have the 2 sends?  you have to set the output to "NONE"
 
Jeff
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