Mixing in mono using stereo synth patches - any way to preserve the sound?

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twigonometry
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2009/10/16 15:43:39 (permalink)

Mixing in mono using stereo synth patches - any way to preserve the sound?

So I have some great stereo tracks that I want to make mono for live performance. Everything goes fine until I get to that special killer synth sound. Seems like the timbre is flat out dependent on being stereo and once in mono it just sounds like a completely different instrument.

Are there any good workarounds that people can suggest to preserve the basic timbre while making it mono compatible? Thanks!
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    stickfly112
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    Re:Mixing in mono using stereo synth patches - any way to preserve the sound? 2009/10/16 16:11:55 (permalink)
    Hi twigonometry, maybe this will help you:

    The Problems

    Without going into too much technical detail, there are three things that are affected when stereo tracks combine to mono; level, timbre, and ambience. Interestingly enough, though differences in arrival time to our ears from two sources allow us to localize sound, when those two sources are combined in mono, sound quality changes. For example, when a dry guitar and its delayed signal are panned apart, the difference in propagation time between them places them in a certain location in the stereo field. When those two tracks are combined we lose spatial information, and the differences in propagation time now affect timbre. It’s an effect called comb filtering, and it can cause loss of levels, hollow or gritty sounding instruments, and bass to drop out. You may also hear a loss of spaciousness and reverberance. The solution is to mix your backing tracks in mono from measure one.

    Tips for Mixing in mono

    Record in mono keeping your tracks center panned. Don’t record a stereo keyboard on two mono channels. Record keyboards on one channel. Most, if not all keyboards have a mono output (usually the Left out). Use it. Most stereo patches on synths and keyboards are not true stereo anyway and tend to do funny things combined in mono.
    Avoid excessive use of reverbs and delays. You’ll have plenty of ambience in the room you’re playing in, and the dry tracks will give your live instrument a nice contrast. If reverb is a part of the sound you’re recording, such as a snare with gated reverb combined with a small hall reverb, and a plate reverb; record with the effect and treat it as part of the sound of the instrument. Since you’re already working in mono, there’ll be no surprises . . . well, maybe one: If you don’t print the reverb and save it for later in the mix, you may find that its space has been taken over by other instruments and overdubs.
    The first thing you’ll notice as everything piles into the center spot is that EQing sounds will become very important. Stuff will turn to mud real quick. We’ll talk more about that later, but for now, since reverb is fresh in your mind, set up your reverbs with a fast low-end decay, and EQ the reverb itself, rolling off the lows. This will add transparency to your mix and avoid the muddy "coming-from-the-bottom-of-a-well" sound—and not a clean well either.
    Reverbs and delays can help to bring a sound forward or backward in a mix, but without the stereo field, that can contribute to mud quicker than clarity. Another thing to consider is that your backing tracks will be creating the illusion of a band onstage with you. Most bands set up in a very linear fashion. Most importantly, the cleaner your backing tracks, the less that can sonically go wrong when you encounter the unpredictable ambience and acoustic behaviors of a club.
    If you have original songs that you’re recording in stereo, create a mono mix from them. Select the parts that are most essential to convey the song while leaving the focus on your performance. They are backing tracks after all, and you might want to give people a reason to buy your CD and hear the full arrangements. If you’ve recorded tracks in stereo, listen to both sides, pick the one that sounds best and throw out the other. Guitars that have been recorded with delays or reverbs that have been panned opposite the source are a common source of stereo cancellation in mono. Lose the delay/reverb track and keep the dry, unaffected signal.
    Build your mix from the bottom up. Start with kick and bass. Once you have those two sounds working together, make sure their combined levels is between –5 and –7dBVU. That should leave you with enough headroom for the other instruments. You may be able to go a little hotter if your arrangements are fairly sparse. Now, add in the rest of your drums and other percussion instruments. Next would be your rhythm instruments such as guitars and keyboard pads.

    EQing for mono

    As we mentioned earlier, you’re biggest battle is going to be EQ. (Okay, we didn’t say that specifically, but it’s still true.) As instruments start to pile on, overlapping frequencies are going to make mud. To EQ in mono always cut a frequency before you boost. It helps if you think of your mix like a totem pole: a continuous sculpture of heads where the top of one is the bottom of another, yet each has a distinctive face.
    In mixing, suggesting a sound works far better than trying to jam the full spectrum into the mix. For example, take an acoustic guitar and roll off the EQ dramatically below 325Hz. It doesn’t sound all that great by itself, but when you drop it into a mix with other electric guitars and bass, it will sound fine. Your ear will add in the lost frequencies.
    Starting with the low frequencies lower bass is between 40-80Hz, upper bass is between 80-160Hz. Musically speaking, that’s the second and third octave. Keep these reserved for kick and bass, and roll off anything that gets in their way. From 160Hz to 1.25kHz is where things can get punchy and powerful, not to mention darker and muddy. Don’t be afraid to cut frequencies here. Musically, this would be octaves four thru six. From 640Hz to 2.5kHz, you’ll find that keyboards such as electric pianos have a lot going on there. Guitars also share that space (and down to 100Hz as well) so divide your sonic real estate between them. Musically, this range is octaves six and seven. Again, don’t be afraid to roll off the lower frequencies. The next octave, number eight, which is from 2.5kHz to 5kHz, is a very important one. Keep this reserved for voice. This will be very important when you try to sing against your tracks. If you’ve boosted in this range, it may sound fine in the mix, but you will experience conflicts when you try to sing. Octave nine, 5kHz to 10kHz, is where you’ll find sounds such as the metallic picking sound of acoustic guitar strings and attack information. In fact, the kick drum has information in this area. As a side note, you can boost bass at around 900Hz to bring it out without overpowering the mix and your overall levels. Be careful, too much can make mud. Finally, in octave ten, which is from 10kHz to 20kHz, you’ll find the hi-hat predominantly and not much else. This is where producers and engineers add extreme high-frequency content such as overtones and the ever-popular "air" to vocals. Keep this spectrum in mind, get to know it intimately, and make sure that your instruments share the range in peace and harmony so-to-speak. Boost with care and don’t be afraid to cut lows. It’s very important to manage your low end.
    If you boost two instruments at the same frequency and both sound good individually, they will fight for space when combined. If both sounded good at 2Khz, then boost one at 1.5k and the other at 2.5k and see what happens. The same thing applies if you cut. For example, if you have four guitars, start with a different frequency for each. For example, guitar 1, roll off at 100Hz, guitar 2 at 115Hz, guitar 3 at 120Hz, etc. Since you won’t have the depth of stereo, all of your instruments are going to sit on top of one another vertically.
    post edited by stickfly112 - 2009/10/16 16:22:59

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    twigonometry
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    Re:Mixing in mono using stereo synth patches - any way to preserve the sound? 2009/10/16 16:29:25 (permalink)
    Hey, yes, I am pretty familiar with mixing in mono in general. My problem is specifically with software synth patches where the very nature of the instrument sound radically changes once it goes to mono. I'm not talking about the "depth" or "fatness" of the sound but what ends up being perceived by me as timbre.

    I'm not well versed on the subtleties of vsynths and wondering if there's any way to "fake" a timbre in  mono when it seems dependent on some kind of phasing or the like.
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    dmbaer
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    Re:Mixing in mono using stereo synth patches - any way to preserve the sound? 2009/10/16 18:04:38 (permalink)
    twigonometry

    I'm not well versed on the subtleties of vsynths and wondering if there's any way to "fake" a timbre in  mono when it seems dependent on some kind of phasing or the like.
    It seems entirely possible that you are, in fact, getting some kind of destructive results when summing the L and R signals into one, due to phase shifts or the like.  So, an obvious question to ask is: what does it sound like if you split the L and R channels into separate mono tracks?  Does one of the resultant tracks retain the mojo of the original?
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    dontletmedrown
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    Re:Mixing in mono using stereo synth patches - any way to preserve the sound? 2009/10/16 20:02:57 (permalink)
    That should not be happening unless you are summing the patch into mono at some point in your session or with your cabling (which you should not be).  Leave everything in Stereo and just give the FOH one side.  If the synth patch is creating some kind of stereo slap, you can use a delay plugin and try your best to simulate that effect in mono.  Good luck.
    post edited by dontletmedrown - 2009/10/16 20:07:54
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    Jeff Evans
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    Re:Mixing in mono using stereo synth patches - any way to preserve the sound? 2009/10/16 20:55:36 (permalink)
    The OP was really asking what the best way to sum the stereo outputs from a virtual synth is in order to preserve the sound as best as possible.

    The real solution to this is to get right into the programming of the virtual synth itself and see where the stereo imaging is coming from. Often there are several oscillators (or samples) playing back under one note and they sometimes pan these things. Then there are modulation effects which create stereo imaging. eg A LFO panning the position of an oscillator etc. Then there are the effects which are often applied before the sound even comes out of the virtual synth. It is here that they sometimes get into silly widening concepts such as phase alteration or partial phase alteration of one side, chorus, symphonic effects etc. Once with a Korg wavestation I was hearing a fantasticly wide patch but in mono it really sucked bad! I found by reversing the phase on one side only and adding the two channels together the sound was much better. Try doing that with channel tools and see what happens. It wont work all the time but it will on patches that have got into silly phase reversals on one side only. Synth programmers sometimes do idiotic things in order to make a patch sound stereo like.

    I would start with the effects within the virtual synth itself. Try turning them off and see what it sounds like. Then if the sound really suffers as a result of doing this then you may have to add the effect back but externally. Use channel tools to narrow any images on any effects you make to keep them solid for mono as well.

    If the synth is external or hardware then you are going to have to learn the operating system of that instrument and do the same thing in terms of investigating where the stereo imaging is coming from.

    Another thing to ask is why are you worried about mono? It is good to check mixes and things in mono but you really have to ask yourself what are the chances of hearing this music in mono? A lot or if at all. Sometimes you just have to throw mono to the wind and not worry about it.
    post edited by Jeff Evans - 2009/10/16 21:01:10

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    dontletmedrown
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    Re:Mixing in mono using stereo synth patches - any way to preserve the sound? 2009/10/16 21:19:21 (permalink)
    His first sentence says "For live performance..." 

    FYI, I work FOH.  Most live sound is mono unless you are in Tool or U2.

    Best bet is to NOT SUM-- keep everything in stereo and give FOH 1 side.
    post edited by dontletmedrown - 2009/10/16 21:25:00
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    Jeff Evans
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    Re:Mixing in mono using stereo synth patches - any way to preserve the sound? 2009/10/16 22:12:37 (permalink)
    Sorry I did not see the live performance bit, but what I said still applies to some degree. If you can keep your synth sounds fairly strong mono wise right back at the source, it is a still better place to lock them down image wise. But see comments below. Leave em alone and work out a way to use them stereophonically. To me, when synth sounds have  fantastic stereo images, and some do believe me (Kurzweil) I just marvel at it and say the bigger the better!

    I dont agree with the concept of PA' s having to be totally mono live at all. It is a total waste of the live resources on hand. I have mixed some fairly serious live shows as well and if the FOH speakers are reasonably well placed, and visable from the audience, what is wrong with applying some studio practices of keeping all the important stuff panned centre of course but if the keyboard player is hitting you with some very nice stereo pad for example then why not put out front that way. It sounds beautiful, even in a great big room, Its out of the way from all the stuff panned centre and it ends up being lower in volume to great effect. Maximum illusion, minimum voltage. Stereo keyboard sounds are going to be either more pronounced or less in a live room, and if its more, then you can afford to turn them down a bit. If its less then no harm done and you are not loosing any quality because the L and R outputs are not being summed at any point. The vocal reverb can stay in stereo as well that sounds quite effective. Its funny how people say Oh U2 can do it but I cannot. Sorry, I can do it just the same as them. It comes down to tuning the room properly (especially matching left and right sound) in the first place and if you have done that, then anything you pan or do in stereo you will hear clearly and will sound great. Hey what about a Pink Floyd gig with 4 speaker directions, is that good or what! Mono would not cut it for them. I have even done some shows with speakers behind the audience for some special keyboard effects, it can be very effective.

    Backing tracks should ultimately come to the PA in stereo as well and they should be mixed in a similar fashion. Important stuff centre, nice stuff in stereo. Backing track playback technology should incorporate more than two outputs so click tracks can be also be provided as well as the main stereo track for live drummers etc. The V Studio 100 is ideal for this gig!

    For just straight live playing then if the PA can handle it leave it in stereo, and monitoring for yourself should ideally be through two active monitors, they dont have to be huge in size to create a fair bit of sound. Two speakers will also deliver your sound better on stage to you as well and you have the flexibility of moving them around to suit. The stage sound is only going to get nicer if the stage keyboard sound is also in stereo.


    post edited by Jeff Evans - 2009/10/16 22:51:42

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    dontletmedrown
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    Re:Mixing in mono using stereo synth patches - any way to preserve the sound? 2009/10/16 22:53:57 (permalink)
    Jeff Evans



    I dont agree with the concept of PA' s having to be totally mono live at all.


    The people on the right side of the stage like to hear what is going on on the left side.  I can't break it down any simpler than that.  Most of the audience doesn't get to hear exactly what the sound guy hears.  Megastars and tripped out prog bands maybe a different story. Ever worked live sound?  Tuning the room is usually not the FOH's job or even an option. 
    post edited by dontletmedrown - 2009/10/16 22:57:48
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    Jeff Evans
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    Re:Mixing in mono using stereo synth patches - any way to preserve the sound? 2009/10/16 23:10:02 (permalink)
    I have worked quite a lot of live sound. Especially larger venues up to 1200 or 1500 people and with high quality PA's and where I had the time to get good FOH sound and foldback as well. And I have been employed in situations where a quality mix has been required. I have been lucky as a lot of rooms I have mixed in sounded very good.

    Not sure what is meant by tuning the room is not the FOH's job or even an option. I am talking about the scale of live production that allows the FOH engineer the job of doing just that. I certainly do and only mix live gigs live where I can tune FOH.

    I dont get into a lot of panning individual sounds live so much either. And when I refer to stereo keyboard sounds, I mean sounds that are very similar on both sides but when heard in stereo sound very wide. This type of sound works fine for people close to either side of the venue. They are still hearing the right amount of keyboards in the mix and the people more central may hear the stereo effect more.  I am still of the opinion you can hear sound coming from different directions anywhere in a room.
    post edited by Jeff Evans - 2009/10/16 23:26:39

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    dontletmedrown
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    Re:Mixing in mono using stereo synth patches - any way to preserve the sound? 2009/10/17 00:26:40 (permalink)
    Not trying to start a pissing match Jeff, just sharing what I've seen.  I have never been responsible for tuning a room.  FWIW, I don't enjoy live sound at all.  I'm kinda getting bored chatting about it.
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    twigonometry
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    Re:Mixing in mono using stereo synth patches - any way to preserve the sound? 2009/10/17 00:36:45 (permalink)
    Thanks for all the excellent feedback! Really INVALUABLE input and I definitely have some stuff try out.

    My need to do mono is due to a current a hardware limitation - I have one stereo out at my disposal and will be panning the vox hard right/everything else hard left to give my sound guy some control. You do what you gotta do right? But many intriguing thoughts are presented for when I get more capable gear later on.

    And, haha, I can tell you right now that anyone in the first row at my show isn't going to be concerned about a pristine mix. At my gigs it'll be more about noise, adrenaline, and probably some kind of substance usage. And a fair number of people with poor discretion. =D
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    Spaceduck
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    Re:Mixing in mono using stereo synth patches - any way to preserve the sound? 2009/10/17 10:26:18 (permalink)
    Hey twig... here's one more idea that hasn't been mentioned...

    Maybe you could use a Mid-Side Encoder to convert your stereo keyboard tracks to M/S. Mix the regular (stereo) version as you normally would, but when mixing the live (mono) version, mute the S tracks. The remaining M track may be a better mono representation than if you were to sum the R & L tracks as you're currently doing.

    I've never tried this, although I'm familiar with the problem you're talking about. Some wide stereo synth patches seem to go 'out of tune' when summed to mono or if you listen to just one ear. I guess these patches use thick chorus... and chorus usually sounds horrendous in mono.

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    bitflipper
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    Re:Mixing in mono using stereo synth patches - any way to preserve the sound? 2009/10/17 12:03:57 (permalink)
    If a synth patch truly needs to be stereo in order to sound like it should, then - duh - keep it stereo or don't use that patch!

    Fortunately, most synth patches don't need to be stereo. But you don't want to sum them to mono - just use the left or right side alone.


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    Jeff Evans
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    Re:Mixing in mono using stereo synth patches - any way to preserve the sound? 2009/10/18 18:20:54 (permalink)
    Bit, this does not work for sounds that are quite different on both sides. I have got a Kurzweil patch for example that is a great piano sound. But as you play the keys from very low to high the piano sound is heavily panned from left to right also. Using one side of that patch would not be good. Mixing to mono is the only alternative.

    I am of the opinion it does not hurt to practice mixing synth sounds to mono. It is a skill worth getting right. As I said much earlier it encourages you to get into the synth operating system and alter the programming right back there. I could edit that Kurzweil patch for example and keep the piano fairly central and also pull the reverb back so that it also collapses to mono well.

    This skill is also useful for pulling stereo tracks down into mono too. Not all stereo tracks need to stay in stereo and sometimes making them mono works better in a mix. I find the Waves Stereo Imager plugin is good for this type of stuff. It not only widens images but narrows them down too and it seems to do it very well.

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    jimmyman
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    Re:Mixing in mono using stereo synth patches - any way to preserve the sound? 2009/10/18 19:19:17 (permalink)
    And, haha, I can tell you right now that anyone in the first row at my show isn't going to be concerned about a pristine mix. At my gigs it'll be more about noise, adrenaline, and probably some kind of substance usage. And a fair number of people with poor discretion. =D


       To the OP

         That's an oxymoron. Your concern is quality but then you say
    what you said above.
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    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re:Mixing in mono using stereo synth patches - any way to preserve the sound? 2009/10/19 03:56:37 (permalink)
    Jeff Evans


    Bit, this does not work for sounds that are quite different on both sides. I have got a Kurzweil patch for example that is a great piano sound. But as you play the keys from very low to high the piano sound is heavily panned from left to right also. Using one side of that patch would not be good. Mixing to mono is the only alternative.



    Hi Jeff.

    Mixing to mono isn't your ONLY alternative - you can always use a tool like Channel Tools to narrow the apparent width of a stereo patch.

    Even the Sonnitus Phase plugin does a reasonable job.

    Ok, this won't work in a live situation, but sometimes ni the studio, I want a stereo patch to have some width to it - not just 100% L+R


    Back in the old days, I'd occasionally run a synth output to 2 mono channels on the desk and adjust the panning there.

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