BCF/BCR2000, a girlie cry for help...

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Karyn
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2009/11/17 09:57:19 (permalink)

BCF/BCR2000, a girlie cry for help...

I'm running 8.5.1 Pro 64bit on Win7 64
I have BCF2000 and BCR2000
I use the BCF in Mackie mode.
 
Each unit works fine if only one is connected but if I connect both BCF and BCR at the same time they both fail like they're conflicting with each other.
 
I've read all the other threads about connecting multiple units, and yes I'd love to have 3 pairs of each like some of you guys have. I've read all the posts about AJ's magic CS driver and I'm affraid I don't understand a word of how to install it
 
Can anyone give a SIMPLE step by step list of what I should do to make these things work together please?
 
You need to be specific in the instructions if possible, telling me to "install the latest drivers" is no good.  What is the driver I need? The Behringer web site shows about 4 different ones and I'm sure I already have the right one anyway.
 
You nice boys that are using this settup,  please help a damsel in distress

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    wetdentist
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    Re:BCF/BCR2000, a girlie cry for help... 2009/11/17 10:28:00 (permalink)
    make sure you have a driver that is specifically for 64 bit.  once you download that (if they have one) then double-click it and the install should happen automatically

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    seriousfun
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    Re:BCF/BCR2000, a girlie cry for help... 2009/11/17 11:52:12 (permalink)
    (wetdentist) There is no BCF driver for Vista, 7, or x64. It just properly shows up as a MIDI device, and runs well in SONAR as a Mackie Controller (you have to start it in SONAR mode, as in the manual).

    I don't have a BCR, so I don't know what happens when you try to use them together.

    Doug Osborne
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    Susan G
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    Re:BCF/BCR2000, a girlie cry for help... 2009/11/17 12:20:13 (permalink)
    I don't have a BCR, so I don't know what happens when you try to use them together.

    And I only have a BCR, so I'm not sure how they work together, either. I'd expect them to show up as separate MIDI devices in SONAR. The BCR is identified as BCR2000[1], which leads me to think other devices should have different IDs.

    @Karyn: Have you tried the BC Manager from Mountain Utilities (http://home.kpn.nl/~f2hmjvandenberg281/). That automatically detects the BC devices you have installed (plus it does lots of other good stuff!).

    There's also a way to chain them, but I've never looked into it so I don't know if it would help in your case.

    -Susan

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    Karyn
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    Re:BCF/BCR2000, a girlie cry for help... 2009/11/17 12:51:41 (permalink)
    @Wetdentist,   what seriousfun said.  You just plug it in and it works.  Except that pluging TWO in (1 BCR and 1 BCF) makes them both lock up.

    @Susan,  Yes I got that to sorta work.  I keep the BCF in mackie mode and BC Manager didn't find it, but it did find the BCR.   And then it didn't...


    Sonar sees the BCF in mackie mode just great as long as the BCR is not connected, and vice versa.

    The Behringer instructions imply that you chain two units by connecting the first with usb, then the second via midi cables to the first.  But people in the other threads are simply plugging everything with usb cables and not commenting on "hey, it works"  it just does.  But mine doesn't...

    Susan, are you using AJ's CS program?


    Karyn

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    ...wicked
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    Re:BCF/BCR2000, a girlie cry for help... 2009/11/17 12:53:06 (permalink)
    I have  both, and when installed with the AJ's surface you basically end up with 2 similar control surfaces.  They're kind of redundant.

    I had thought, "okay, lemme 'downgrade' the BCR to an ACT surface just for plugs..." since it has more controls than the BCF.  Well, ACT's limitations make most of the BCR useless, so much for that.

    So now I just use the BCF and I use the controls on my Edirol unit for ACT functions. The BCR? Well at the moment it's just hanging out.  I'll prolly use it for my laptop rig.  I kind of hope for ACT 2.0 that might make it worth hooking back up again.

    As far as drivers and whatnot, for reasons I can't determine sometimes the BCx units get installed as "USB Audio Device" when there's just one of them.  When that happens only one unit can work at a time. More than one and they get confused. If it installs like Susan said, as "BCx 2000[1]" then you can layer your multiple installs on each other.  For some reason my Trigger Finger is also susceptible to this oddity and doesn't play nice with my other controllers.

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    Karyn
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    Re:BCF/BCR2000, a girlie cry for help... 2009/11/17 13:05:15 (permalink)
    ...Wicked

    Correct me if I'm wrong,  I was under the impression that the BCF in mackie mode (as I use it now) worked chanel vol, mute,solo,pan  and then the BCR under AJ's CS (which I've not managed to make work) provided the other controls for the chanel such as eq, fx send, etc.

    Is that right?   I can't make it work.

    Mekashi Futo
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    Sickvision
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    Re:BCF/BCR2000, a girlie cry for help... 2009/11/17 13:09:25 (permalink)
    i had simaler issue and i gave up and just go withthe BCF with the mackie controling but have to reset the contros surface threw midi devices and control surfaces offten and 2 was also ussless for my apps

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    Susan G
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    Re:BCF/BCR2000, a girlie cry for help... 2009/11/17 13:12:45 (permalink)
    Hi Karyn-

    Susan, are you using AJ's CS program?

    I haven't set it up again since I re-installed my OS, but I used it with excellent results before that (32-bit).

    What available MIDI devices are showing in SONAR? If you're using only USB to connect the BCs, my understanding is that you shouldn't use the BC* [A] or settings, since those refer to MIDI ports.

    I'm surprised BC Manager doesn't find them reliably, though; OTOH I'm at a disadvantage since I only have one unit.

    -Susan



    post edited by Susan G - 2009/11/17 13:15:31

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    Susan G
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    Re:BCF/BCR2000, a girlie cry for help... 2009/11/17 13:19:59 (permalink)
    Correct me if I'm wrong, I was under the impression that the BCF in mackie mode (as I use it now) worked chanel vol, mute,solo,pan and then the BCR under AJ's CS (which I've not managed to make work) provided the other controls for the chanel such as eq, fx send, etc.

    I don't know about the BCF in Mackie mode, but AJ's CS provides much more functionality than what you describe. This is from his release_notes.rtf:

    How to use it

    There's quite a lot of functionality tucked away here, so please read carefully. In summary, here's what you'll be able to do:-

    Control as many tracks, busses and masters as you have in your project (gain,mute,solo, record arm, pan, send #1 gain, send #1 pan)
    Get immediate full-duplex feedback to the control surface; if you change something in Sonar, the control surface immediately reflects the change.
    Set parameters for track inserts and track EQ.
    Control Sonar's transport
    Scrub the transport
    View 'scribble strips' for all controls so you can work out what's controlling what.
    -Susan


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    Susan G
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    Re:BCF/BCR2000, a girlie cry for help... 2009/11/17 14:55:06 (permalink)
    Hi Karyn-

    Another thought: Have you tried the Yahoo BC2000 group? http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/bc2000/

    -Susan

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    Karyn
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    Re:BCF/BCR2000, a girlie cry for help... 2009/11/17 15:15:18 (permalink)
    I'll go look at the yahoo group.

    Thanks Susan

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    ...wicked
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    Re:BCF/BCR2000, a girlie cry for help... 2009/11/17 15:23:22 (permalink)
    Yeah the BCR surface offers more tactile controls of the real-time parameters, as such it's got more handles to do so.  The Mackie BCF mode has a few function buttons that I prefer having, and it's less combos to get there.  Try 'em both, and use the one that you like better.


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    Sickvision
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    Re:BCF/BCR2000, a girlie cry for help... 2009/11/17 15:34:23 (permalink)
    BCF is used with the basic mackie controls at the bottom of the list of contol surfaces. if it show in midi devices then use mackie contol and selrct the device in the in and out puts and it starts right up every time good lock with the BCR i use the Axium for pads

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    Karyn
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    Re:BCF/BCR2000, a girlie cry for help... 2009/11/17 16:11:46 (permalink)
    ok,  I found this on gearslutz posted by bitman

    AFAIK, There is no documented way to string more than 2 BCFs via MIDI cables. I did not try very hard either.

    Also: As far as I have tested with SONAR and the Mackie emulation, they don't like to be connected to the PC via a HUB. I think the PC is not able to discern the unit IDs.

    I am running 3 USB cables to Three ports on the back of my PC which as I type this I realize is a hub, but I could not get them to go via an external USB hub.


    I guess I'm having this problem with the usb ports on my laptop, but it does have two pairs of ports on each side...   I'll try a different port and see if that makes a difference.  otherwise I think I'm stuffed.

    Karyn


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    wetdentist
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    Re:BCF/BCR2000, a girlie cry for help... 2009/11/17 16:16:03 (permalink)
    oh, a hub!!  they should put warning stickers on them at stores: WARNING: MOST THINGS YOU PLUG INTO THIS WILL NO LONGER WORK!

       ps: i have a couple hardware devices that require 64 bit drivers for them (as they offer both x86 and x64 versions of the drivers
    post edited by wetdentist - 2009/11/17 16:17:46

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    Susan G
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    Re:BCF/BCR2000, a girlie cry for help... 2009/11/17 16:26:27 (permalink)
    Hi Karyn-

    I only have one BC unit, but did bitman say why he's running 3 USB cables into his PC? If I had 2 units, I'd connect each via one USB cable to a different USB port. Again, I only have one, but USB is bi-directional, so maybe (shot in the dark) you'd get a feedback loop with the extra cable, and consequently a lock-up. This can certainly happen if MIDI cables are mis-routed.

    -Susan

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    Karyn
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    Re:BCF/BCR2000, a girlie cry for help... 2009/11/17 16:52:08 (permalink)
    Susan,   he's using 1 usb cable for each BCx unit,  it's just that he has a lot of them ( I think 7 )

    I think my problem is the two usb sockets on the side of my laptop are actually just one usb port,  but there are more on the other side so if they're not all linked together as a hub I should be ok.

    Gonna go try it in a minute or two.

    Back soon.

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    Blades
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    Re:BCF/BCR2000, a girlie cry for help... 2009/11/17 20:44:31 (permalink)
    Incidentally, if you are going to use a USB hub for anything, you will avoid a lot of issues with a powered one - i.e. one that has its own external plug-in-the-wall power supply.

    I'd offer my BCF videos from my website, but you are obviously past that spot and doing something I don't cover in them (and part one doesnt' really seem to be working right now for some reason)

    Blades
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    Karyn
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    Re:BCF/BCR2000, a girlie cry for help... 2009/11/18 08:48:25 (permalink)
    @Blades

    Took a look at your vid, very good and informative.  Just what I use my BCF for atm, and prolly everyone else as well.  Nice vid.
    I want to do the same with my BCR for synths and plugins, specifically Guitar Rig 4.  This is where I'm having problems.

    @Everyone else reading (and hopfully offering sujestions)

    I've come to the conclusion that there is a minor bug in either the BCR/BCF firmware or in the generic usb driver that windows uses.

    Let me work through my thinking then you can correct anything I get wrong...
    The BCx units comunicate via midi only. That can either be by physical midi sockets or by the built in USB/midi converter.  When you connect with USB Windows simply sees a standard USB/midi interface and loads its own generic usb audio/midi driver.
    So far, so good. Everything works as expected with ONE BCx unit.

    Connect a second device and Windows recognises it, loads a new driver instance and correctly reports the hardware in device manager.
    The two devices are named corectly (BCR2000 and BCF2000), each correctly shows the path to the port it is pluged into and each reports the correct data without any conflicts.

    Loading BC manager, both units are correctly found and can be accessed.
     HOWEVER,  the midi in/out port NAMES as reported by BC manager both show as the same.  Through experimentation I determined that this name was always the last unit to be connected.

    So turning on the BCF then the BCR would show in BC manager as two midi interfaces both named BCR2000.  BUT BC manager CAN TELL WHICH IS WHICH, so I guess it is ignoring the actual name and maybe using a process id or something similar that will differentiate one from the other.

    Switching to Sonar and the midi devices list has exactly the same problem, two midi interfaces both called BCR2000. So far, so good, Sonar has recognised both the units even if they have the same name.  But when you try to actually use them in (say) selecting CS midi interface, or setting the interface to use on a chanel, only ONE BCR2000 shows in the list.

    This is not a bug as such with Sonar, as it is clearly using the reported name in the selection list and there's nothing wrong with that as long as everything is working as expected. But by not being able to differentiate between two interfaces with the same (mis)reported name, it can't use both units at once.

    If BC manager can use both devices with the same reported name then there should be no reason why Sonar can't as well.

    If anyone can think of a workaround for this I'm all ears. (and eyes and fingers)


    Karyn

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    bitman
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    Re:BCF/BCR2000, a girlie cry for help... 2009/11/18 13:50:31 (permalink)
    Here is how you do it.

    Hook up the BCF2000 via USB (Mode U1) in Mackie EMU mode, with an ID of 1 - get it working.

    Set the BCR2000 to Mode S3 (I think, check manual, to cascade it's either S1 or S3) And set it's ID to ID2

    Now plug the BCR into THE BCF with two midi cables as per the manual.

    You should be able to use the bcr now as a limited ACT controller or with AJ's plug - some other functions.

    There is no native support under Sonar for the bcr2000 your choices afaik are: ACT (limited), AJ's plugin, and midi learn.

    :Ron


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    Frostysnake
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    Re:BCF/BCR2000, a girlie cry for help... 2009/11/18 14:07:13 (permalink)
    Look up Fastbikerboy and Blades...they are both excellent with these CS...do a search for either one...they helped me immensely!

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    Frostysnake
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    Re:BCF/BCR2000, a girlie cry for help... 2009/11/18 14:08:18 (permalink)
    Oops...I see Blades already chimmed in! Sorry I skipped over ya man!

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    ptorpey
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    Re:BCF/BCR2000, a girlie cry for help... 2011/03/17 21:31:04 (permalink)
    Someone in this thread mentioned that they just "plug in the BCF2000" and it works every time.

    I am seeing that, if I close Sonar 8.53 and turn off the BCF2000, then the next time I try to use the BCF as a control surface in Sonar I have to first delete it and then re-add it as a control surface.  It seems that I shouldn't have to do this.  What is wrong?

    Note: I do start the BCF2000 in Sonar emjulation mode (by hitting the 4th button in the top row while turning on power)    prior to starting Sonar.

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    ivanSC
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    Re:BCF/BCR2000, a girlie cry for help... 2011/03/18 04:23:54 (permalink)
    ....and so we come full circle.

    I have at various times had both a Korg Nanokontrol and a BCF2000 working just fine in tandem and never had to delete/reinstall either on close and reopen of sonar.

    Anyone else able to reproduce ptorpey`s problem?

    Oh and MY new acquisition is a Novation Zero Sl, so getting all 3 working at the same time might prove interesting, even though the Zero is mostly for "playing" EZDrummer latin perc....

    I will try to set up all three as controllers, as the idea of 24 channels of fader control does appeal.
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    FastBikerBoy
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    Re:BCF/BCR2000, a girlie cry for help... 2011/03/18 05:58:41 (permalink)
    Karyn, I don't have a BCR and now have a MCU and a spare BCF. I did try bitman's adaptation of AJ's BCR CS dll for my BCF and reached the conclusion after some email exchanges with Bitman that it doesn't work in a x64 environment.

    That may be the root cause of your woes. If AJ's BCR surface dll is x32 only (which I don't know for a fact BTW) then you'll never get it going. Sorry.

    Having said that search for BCF/BCR posts by adrian4u. He got several units working together although I can't remember whether that was under a x64 environment or not.
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    ivanSC
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    Re:BCF/BCR2000, a girlie cry for help... 2011/03/19 03:30:57 (permalink)
    An addition in the light of the above - I run Sonar in 32 bit mode under win7 pro 64bit OS.

    And the BCF still works fine.
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