Opinions on using Sonar for scoring

Hi Mike,
I don't have an answer for you, but you're asking an interesting question and it was getting pretty far down the list, so I'm posting to bump it back up again in the hopes that someone can give you some input soon.

Good luck!!!!!

Thank you Ping and Wicked.  As I stated my projects have all been small to this point, so its possible that I have not run into the "over time" problem that could force a re-import.  That could be ugly if it re-imported and messed with all your markers. 

So far, I import a video, make markers where I want certain events or hits, make music as I would normally.  Nothing seems to change music wise between if there was a video there or not.  I have changed tempos several times in a project and have not had the unsyncing problem. 

It would seem to me its easier to edit video to music for hits/accents than to write music to video (which does not have a tempo map and makes hits and explosions anywhere it wants)  That being said, I just cant see at this point what else could be done with a DAW that does not include editing the video itself.  You make music and sync it up to the pre-recorded video.  I am not doubting anything you tell me Wicked, I just havent experienced the unsyncing thing, and admittedly I am quite the novice and very new to the process.  I imagine there are plenty of things that I dont know one can do with the DAW while working with video.  

I cant picture with my limited experience what editing or manipulation of data there is that Sonar doesnt have.  Do you have any examples?  Do you mean purely musical editing or is there different video editing features in the other programs?

My motivation for this is, I just dont want to learn to use a screw driver when it's a nail that needs inserting.  Right now, I live by the ole stand-by "If a hammer is your only tool all your problems look like nails"
-Thanks for the reply
-Mike 

Hey Guys,  Ive posted this stuff many times before,  guess i'll do it again.  I 've scored a TON of video using Sonar over the years (Starting with Calkwalk 3.0).  I think a like it because Sonar is simple an easy to compose music with 1st.  If you are doing more audio for video then other programs work better.

The sync issue usually happens when people have audio clips, then change tempos (tempi) along the way.  If you lock your clips or make the clips start from the begining of the timeline there isn't a sync issue.

I suggest the following. 

1) Use a video editing program like Vegas to prepare your video for Sonar.
2) Put the 1st frame of picture at the :10 mark everytime.
3) Generate an MPEG-1 or AVI to work with.  
4) Work with 10-20 min video chunks or "reels"
5) Generate Quicktime videos with Vegas (Not Sonar) to send for client approval.

I have a older secondary computor to do my video work.  This allows me to render and send video music samples while I work on the main music computor.   I use those steps because editors will send all different types of video (some will work in Sonar and some will not-Vegas handles them fine).  Pre roll times will vary everytime an editor sends a new version so with :10 start times I spend no time resyncing music cues.  Generating a quick time from Sonar is not effcient.  In vegas I can use Page rolls or :02 wipes to create  streamers that roll across the screen to indicate music start and stop times (and hit points)  that makes improvising to a scene fun an easy.

Personally I love scoring to pic with Sonar.  You have to learn some tricks with tempos,  but other than that it is fun


 

  

I would like to add to what Jimbo said but to be honest I don't know that much about video.  For me, it is often just a guessing game trying to convert to a format that SONAR is happy with.  That is to say, I've had mixed results with MP4, WMV, MOV, and AVI formats.  90% of the time AVI is the way to go for me, but depending on the settings of the video sometimes I have issues.

If I digitize the video myself to AVI, I know 100% of the time it is going to work.  If someone sends me a MOV or MP4 or WMV file, I will usually try to import it into SONAR first, which works about 30% of the time.  When it doesn't work, I then use a number of free utilities I've found on the internet to convert it to another format, most of the time AVI.  That works about 80% of the time.  When that doesn't work, I will tweak the conversion settings until I get something that works.  Sometimes converting in a different program works, sometimes exporting it in Quicktime Pro works.  Sometimes I export it in Quicktime and then use another program to convert it.  Sometimes I never get it to work and ask them to send it to me in a different format.

I know this doesn't sound like a very qualified answer, but I have a couple of points to add:

1) When SONAR doesn't "like" my video file, I know it right away.  The entire program gets a little glitchy or hangs; the video doesn't sync; there might be a very small but discernable pause when I hit play.  Whatever it is, I always know when the video is going to cause problems with SONAR.

2) When SONAR does "like" my video file, I can work with a 40+ minute video, with literally 100s and 100s of tempo changes, markers, and meter changes and never have a single problem or crash or video drift.  I've worked with 100s of 40-minute videos since SONAR 2 and never had a problem with any of them.  But like I mention, the key for me is getting the video to the proper format before I bring the video into SONAR.

Matt
1) When SONAR doesn't "like" my video file, I know it right away.

I agree with this 100%. It's always obvious when SONAR chokes. And, as an aside, I've gotten feedback from tech support that asks details, but in those cases ACID and Reaper deal with it just fine, so I just moved on. After all, in those cases I'm not trying to help a company make a better product, I'm trying to meet a deadline.


That said, Cakewalk was early in the process of being able to score to hit points, and I don't mean to insult them. I just think in the age of "gooey audio" and tempo-based demarkation that if Cakewalk wants to lead they need to embrace elegant solutions for lining up hit points to tempo-based compositions. Imagine composing a ditty and simply drag-dropping critical compositional highlights to actual hit points!

Hey Mike,
  Vegas IS a video editing program and I do use it as a tool to change video formats.  I use Sony Vegas to create my "chunks" and render a video that insures it will work inside Sonar.  I do not have one program chasing another.  I like the idea of having Sonar chase picture to conserve resources,  but you will lose instant access.  Plus I'm using a 64 bit Core i7 machine now and CPU usage is no longer an issue for me.

I work with 10-20 min chunks because most of my projects have natural breaks.  I have had so few problems working with these size files that I will work with 10-20 min chunks even if the project is bigger for a variety of reasons (safety is one).  Maybe now I'll start considering working with larger files after seeing Matt's post. 

In the end,  there are a variety of ways to get your project back in one piece.  The best way to do it usually depends on your clients situation.  In my case,  I will input a SYMPTE offset (in the project options page) and generate an OMF file that gets imported into Pro Tools for final mix.  When the Pro Tools mixer imports my OMF it will place itself in the correct timeline.  If you want to give your client one long stereo mix,  export broadcast waves from all your "chunks" and re import them into a new file.  Broadcast waves are time stamped and no time is spent line-ing things up.  Remember that all your chunks have to have the correct offset.
 
and Wicked has a good point.  I wish Sonar hit "marks" easier.  You can always use "Fit To Time" or "place beat at Now",  but you can get yourself into a lot of trouble if you are not careful using those commands.  Hitting marks should be easier.  But I don't understand why anyone would waste time calling tech support or try to get Sonar to work with different video formats when it is so easy to generate a video that Sonar will work well with.

And I'm not saying my way is the best way,  I'm just saying what had worked for me.  I really know very little about video or computors.  If someone has a better method I'm all ears.....

Someone posted on this website a link to a version of Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring" that was done using MIDI tracks in Sonar and it sounded incredible. I'd say Sonar is more than up to the task. I can't speak for the video part, but it definitely can handle any audio tasks you can throw at it.

pinguinotuert

Wow, this post has been very educational for me. Thanks to all for sharing

 
Same here, thanks again.  I will push on with Sonar as my 'hammer'.
 
-Mike

I had already typed it in when I realized he was talking about video... but I left it anyway. So there!

Sonar does have SMPTE and it allows you to have a video track and sync your music up that way. I use Vegas Movie Studio for my attempts at video. I usually edit the video to the music though and not the other way around.