derFunkenstein
Max Output Level: -76 dBFS
- Total Posts : 735
- Joined: 2009/05/05 16:15:24
- Status: offline
Direct Input boxes - what am I listening for?
I got to borrow a direct input box tonight. Bear in mind I am not a professional; this is strictly a hobby and I've got something south of hobbyist-level equipment. I'm going back and forth on my sound card, but for the moment I've decided to stick the X-Fi back in my computer. Plugged into it I have a Behringer Xenyx 1202 mixer. Plugged into that, I have either a Rapco DB100 High to Low Impedance Converter box which is then plugged into my guitar, or I just have my guitar plugged into the mixer, just to check the difference. If it matters, my guitar is pretty entry level as well - a Squier Stratocaster with the tone pots and the volume cranked up and the input selector set to the pickup closest to the neck.
So tonight I am doing some blind listening tests. My wife is swapping back and forth between the two for me, just handing me one instrument cable, I plug it into the guitar and play for a bit, then handing me another instrument cable and I swap. The cables are a mess and I can't tell which is which and she won't tell me. So I'm guessing and you're going to play along.
One of them sounds a tiny bit fuzzier than the other. They both have a decent enough sound to them, but I prefer the one without the fuzz on the top end. It's a subtle difference, though. I have a feeling that the cleaner one is the DI box, would you guys agree? I guess I could post some MP3s but I don't want you guys to find out just how terrible I am at guitar (I've been playing less than a year). :p
|
derFunkenstein
Max Output Level: -76 dBFS
- Total Posts : 735
- Joined: 2009/05/05 16:15:24
- Status: offline
Re:Direct Input boxes - what am I listening for?
2010/05/11 22:11:09
(permalink)
OK she finally relented, the cleaner one was the DI box.
But then I got to thinking, my little Peavey Solo practice amp has tape-out, so I plugged that into the mixer and now I'm amused - I love the sound I get out of it - sound 10x better than anything VGA+ in HS7XL gave me. I'll have to play with it a bit but now I think I know how I'll be recording guitar from here on out.
|
SvenArne
Max Output Level: -48 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2719
- Joined: 2007/01/31 12:51:29
- Location: Trondheim, Norway
- Status: offline
Re:Direct Input boxes - what am I listening for?
2010/05/12 02:36:38
(permalink)
Sounds like you're playing the low-end game! Sometimes I wish I would've stayed there instead of moving up into the mid-level hell I go through now. There was great freedom in making recordings that never set out to sound 'pro' in the first place, instead of eternally stuggling to improve mixes that will only ever sound "pretty good for a home studio" and never 'pro' by a parsec.
But enough about me, the main job of a good DI box is to convert a high-Z (instrument) signal into low Z (line level) that equipment such as a mixer is designed to accept. The benefit of matched impedance is superior signal quality which means a fuller and more solid sound with less noise. An electric guitar directly into a mixer sounds brittle and requires a lot of input gain which again introduces noise and distortion especially with cheap mixers. With a piezo-equipped acoustic with active electronics or a modern keyboard the DI box is not so essential, provided the cable run is short.
Sven
|
derFunkenstein
Max Output Level: -76 dBFS
- Total Posts : 735
- Joined: 2009/05/05 16:15:24
- Status: offline
Re:Direct Input boxes - what am I listening for?
2010/05/12 07:46:40
(permalink)
Sven you just described something I was starting to discover for myself - I really had to crank the the Level and Tim pots to even hear it well, and it wasn't a pleasant distortion at all once I did.
Yeah, I'm playing the low-end game. I'm really happy with the sound - and I'm not at a point yet where I feel like the equipment is holding me back. I'm learning by leaps and bounds. Won't allow myself to replace anything I have in function for a minimum of 1 year from date of purchase, and since I purchased most of this gear in March that means I've got a while. :p Just need a couple of mics (since I don't own any at all) and I'm going back and forth on this DI box, since the tape out from the amp sounded so good.
|
The Maillard Reaction
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 31918
- Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
- Status: offline
Re:Direct Input boxes - what am I listening for?
2010/05/12 07:49:20
(permalink)
|
derFunkenstein
Max Output Level: -76 dBFS
- Total Posts : 735
- Joined: 2009/05/05 16:15:24
- Status: offline
Re:Direct Input boxes - what am I listening for?
2010/05/12 10:29:55
(permalink)
Thanks for the link Mike. I'm looking at it now and I guess I don't get it - why would I record both clean and amp signals together into one track? I noticed the DI box I borrowed had a passthrough so that I could do that, just don't get the reasoning. I'm still learning, like I said. :)
I get dual-mics, for the amp and for the room, but I don't get amp + clean. Guess I'll just have to buy my own DI box and a couple more instrument cables to find out, as the only two I have are 1x 3-foot and 1x 15 foot.
|
AT
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 10654
- Joined: 2004/01/09 10:42:46
- Location: TeXaS
- Status: offline
Re:Direct Input boxes - what am I listening for?
2010/05/12 10:47:40
(permalink)
Funky,
recording both sounds lets you blend the two together. A nice clean full sound from the DI and one that is amped. The amp sound can add a little "air" around the sound. Not air as in EQ, but space. Of course, people get all anal about tone and if you like what you are getting out of the amp line out (which has probably shaped by the amp but not speaker) then use that.
I wouldn't get rid of the DI box - they are extremely useful, unless you can buy something you need right now instead.
@
https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome
http://www.bnoir-film.com/ there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
|
The Maillard Reaction
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 31918
- Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
- Status: offline
Re:Direct Input boxes - what am I listening for?
2010/05/12 11:10:03
(permalink)
Funk my first post in that thread is probably a distraction for you at the moment. Further down the thread we started talking about the different direct box designs in detail... that is the part I was thinking might pertain to your questions.
best,
mike
|
MemphisJo
Max Output Level: -79 dBFS
- Total Posts : 594
- Joined: 2009/02/08 20:24:22
- Status: offline
Re:Direct Input boxes - what am I listening for?
2010/05/14 14:06:33
(permalink)
Funky, if you buy a decent interface and/or mixer you don't need a DI box.
A lot of interfaces have an optimized in for an electric guitar and some mixers do too.
Your Peavey probably sounds good because your tape out is probably a line level signal that is interfacing well with your X fi card input. Hobbyist or not I would strongly suggest getting a decent sound card .
For example: you could buy a fast track MK II that has an optimized instrument input for less than the cost of a DI box and it should be a huge improvement over your X fi.
Just keep it simple. Dong an A / B comparison with the wrong gear seems pointless to me.
|
AT
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 10654
- Joined: 2004/01/09 10:42:46
- Location: TeXaS
- Status: offline
Re:Direct Input boxes - what am I listening for?
2010/05/14 14:51:51
(permalink)
There was a nice DI article in Pro Sound Review this month. I get the virtual version - I think it is free. The author compares a couple of brands.
@
https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome
http://www.bnoir-film.com/ there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
|
derFunkenstein
Max Output Level: -76 dBFS
- Total Posts : 735
- Joined: 2009/05/05 16:15:24
- Status: offline
Re:Direct Input boxes - what am I listening for?
2010/05/14 15:23:11
(permalink)
MemphisJo
Your Peavey probably sounds good because your tape out is probably a line level signal that is interfacing well with your X fi card input. Hobbyist or not I would strongly suggest getting a decent sound card .
For example: you could buy a fast track MK II that has an optimized instrument input for less than the cost of a DI box and it should be a huge improvement over your X fi.
Just keep it simple. Dong an A / B comparison with the wrong gear seems pointless to me.
You know, I'm not sure what the difference now as to when other folks have said something similar - maybe it's just finally starting to sink in - but I'm starting to free my mind to that possibility. Is the Fast Track MK II worth the $120? If I upped my budget to, say, $200 could I do significantly better? My PC has a TI Firewire bridge, how would the M-Audio FW Solo do? Better latencies? I could eBay the X-Fi and my Behringer mixer to get that money back, I'm sure.
|
MemphisJo
Max Output Level: -79 dBFS
- Total Posts : 594
- Joined: 2009/02/08 20:24:22
- Status: offline
Re:Direct Input boxes - what am I listening for?
2010/05/14 16:25:31
(permalink)
Well I'm not endorsing any products or anything, pretty much anything will give you an improvement over the X fi which is a gaming card. (I'm assuming that it's a soundblaster right)? There are lots of threads on the pros and cons of various sound cards, but to answer the question 'is the Fast Track MK II worth $120' I would say it's a give away considering that it comes with an optimized guitar input, phantom power, and a direct monitor feature (which will solve any latency issues) not to mention M powered Pro Tools (if you desire to check out another application that could prove useful in the future) which alone is worth over 250 bucks which includes a ton of plug ins including the Sans Amp PS1 pre amp software (which is a 400 dollar value) and will BLOW YOUR MIND. The only thing the FT MKII doesn't have that you might want is a midi interface built in. If I was starting out now I wouldn't even mess with Sonar (although it's a great program). Back when I started this recording thing, getting into Pro Tools was very very expensive and I didn't have a computer that was capable. I wouldn't recommend firewire regardless of your interface type, it can cause headaches, direct monitor solves the problem of latency (gives you zero latency) as you are monitoring the recorded signal (albeit dry) well... directly! You can always use a mixer with FX onboard to add some effects to the dry signal for monitoring while recording dry if you wish and still get zero latency. I don't think going to a 200 dollar budget will give you too much more except more ins and outs. (and a MIDI interface). You could keep your mixer and take advantage of it's inputs and outputs if you need more of those (especially if it has the effects on board). I mean what's 120 dollars these days? it seems that I spend that on just 'breathing' each week.
post edited by MemphisJo - 2010/05/14 16:45:25
|
derFunkenstein
Max Output Level: -76 dBFS
- Total Posts : 735
- Joined: 2009/05/05 16:15:24
- Status: offline
Re:Direct Input boxes - what am I listening for?
2010/05/14 18:27:03
(permalink)
Well I've got a nice MIDI interface - a Yamaha UX-16, which is all I need for the MIDI drums we'll be using. The only reason I asked about the Solo is that it's only $161 at B&H and I figure I should do it right.
I've made some mistakes in building my machine. I did it backwards - I built my computer and then I started reading these forums. I'm not new to Cakewalk software or the concept of DAWs, but I am VERY new to the concept of recording "real" instruments. Everything I've done up until about 2 months ago was done using soft synths.
|
guitardog247
Max Output Level: -66 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1226
- Joined: 2004/02/29 00:06:07
- Location: Madison, WI
- Status: offline
Re:Direct Input boxes - what am I listening for?
2010/05/15 00:11:28
(permalink)
I've never used a DI box in the "home" studio. What are they? I remember the sound man hooking up bass players when i used to play in bands, and play live all the time. They used a DI box sometimes. Impedence matching.
But whenever I record bass at home, i always just plug a cord right into the board. Works find.
What's a DI box?
Sonar, Les Paul Studio, FTU, puter, plugs.........
|
MemphisJo
Max Output Level: -79 dBFS
- Total Posts : 594
- Joined: 2009/02/08 20:24:22
- Status: offline
Re:Direct Input boxes - what am I listening for?
2010/05/15 00:52:06
(permalink)
guitardog247
I've never used a DI box in the "home" studio. What are they? I remember the sound man hooking up bass players when i used to play in bands, and play live all the time. They used a DI box sometimes. Impedence matching.
But whenever I record bass at home, i always just plug a cord right into the board. Works find.
What's a DI box?
I think Sven already covered that and you answered your own question ;) a quote from audiocourses.com: You need a DI box because there is a frequent requirement to interface equipment that has basically non standard unbalanced outputs with the standard balanced inputs of mixers, either at line level or microphone level. An electric guitar, for example, has an unbalanced output of fairly high impedance - around 10 kilo ohms or so. The standard output socket is the 'mono' quarter-inch jack, and output voltage levels of around a volt or so (with the guitar's volume controls set to maximum) can be expected. Plugging the guitar directly into the mic or line level input of a mixer is unsatisfactory for several reasons: - the input impedance of the mixer will be too low for the guitar, which likes to drive impedances of 500 kilo ohms or more;
- the guitar output is unbalanced so the interference-rejecting properties of the mixer's balanced input will be lost;
- the high output impedance of the guitar renders it incapable of driving long studio tie-lines;
- and the guitarist will frequently wish to plug the instrument into an amplifier as well as the mixer, and simply using the same guitar output to feed both via a splitter lead electrically connects the amplifier to the studio equipment which causes severe interference and low-frequency hum problems.
post edited by MemphisJo - 2010/05/15 00:53:29
|
derFunkenstein
Max Output Level: -76 dBFS
- Total Posts : 735
- Joined: 2009/05/05 16:15:24
- Status: offline
Re:Direct Input boxes - what am I listening for?
2010/05/19 14:01:21
(permalink)
Well my Fast Track MkII arrived at my office today. I'm groping it helplessly wishing the day would hurry up and get over already. The bundled software seems interesting at least.
|
ohhey
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 11676
- Joined: 2003/11/06 16:24:07
- Location: Fort Worth Texas USA
- Status: offline
Re:Direct Input boxes - what am I listening for?
2010/05/19 16:30:04
(permalink)
derFunkenstein
Well my Fast Track MkII arrived at my office today. I'm groping it helplessly wishing the day would hurry up and get over already. The bundled software seems interesting at least.
Wow.. the specs say that little thing as a 1M Ohm input for guitar. Should sound pretty good.
|
johnnyV
Max Output Level: -48.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2677
- Joined: 2010/02/22 11:46:33
- Location: Here, in my chair
- Status: offline
Re:Direct Input boxes - what am I listening for?
2010/05/19 19:51:47
(permalink)
Going back a bit, I also own a Behringer Xenyx 1202 mixer and it's line inputs are crap for electric guitars. I used to record directly into a Sound blaster Audigy which had a 1/4 jack right on the front in the knock out box and it actually worked! Electric guitars are the happiest when interfaced with the right pre amps be it in a amp , DI box or like I now use a Morley JD 10 Stomp box. I own 2 interfaces and they both suck for guitar tone when used directly. My amp is at the studio and I'm to lazy to pack it home so I use the Morley. A good quality DI box is a must have for any performing acoustic guitar or bass player. It may often be all that goes to the big system. We use a Boss DI for recording Bass in the studio. You may get lucky with your interface but your Peavey tape outs are a great idea as long as you don't get to much hum. Thats a much better pre amp than you will find in many other set ups.
Sonar X3e Studio - Waiting for Professional Scarlett 6i6Yamaha Gear= 01v - NSM 10 - DTX 400 - MG82cx Roland Gear= A 49- GR 50 - TR 505 - Boss pedalsTascam Gear= DR 40 - US1641 -Mackie Gear= Mix 8 - SRM 350's i5 Z97 3.2GHZ quad 16 Gig RAM W 8.1 home buildTaylor mini GS - G& L Tribute Tele - 72 Fender Princeton - TC BH 250 - Mooer and Outlaw Pedals Korg 05/RW
|
derFunkenstein
Max Output Level: -76 dBFS
- Total Posts : 735
- Joined: 2009/05/05 16:15:24
- Status: offline
Re:Direct Input boxes - what am I listening for?
2010/05/19 22:42:38
(permalink)
ohhey
derFunkenstein
Well my Fast Track MkII arrived at my office today. I'm groping it helplessly wishing the day would hurry up and get over already. The bundled software seems interesting at least.
Wow.. the specs say that little thing as a 1M Ohm input for guitar. Should sound pretty good.
Well I got to fool with it tonight. All I can say is "wow". Compared to the Xenyx/X-Fi combination, well...there's no comparison. This thing sounds great. The direct monitor is awesome, and even software monitoring is surprisingly nimble - I don't feel MUCH lag, although if I switch to direct monitoring I can tell a difference. Also at church tonight I got to plug an SM58 into the Fast Track and mike an amp for a while, and that also sounds fantastic. The amp is a Peavy Bandit something-or-other. That sounded great as well. Amazing what a difference it makes to use hardware designed for recording. I'm goign to sell off the Behringer and use the Alesis model the church owns when it comes time to recording choral vocals.
|
droddey
Max Output Level: -24 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5147
- Joined: 2007/02/09 03:44:49
- Location: Mountain View, CA
- Status: offline
Re:Direct Input boxes - what am I listening for?
2010/05/19 22:53:15
(permalink)
If you are looking for something really good for DI plus the benefit of having a really nice pre-amp as well, the UA Solo/610 is a pretty good toy. You can pick them up used generally around $450 to $500, and it's a nice dual purpose item. It's great for DI'ing in bass or guitar, and it's a really nice pre-amp for mic'ing stuff. And it has a pass through so you can do a DI and amp at the same time if you want.
Since it's a tubed based unit, it's not unlike the pre-amp of a tube amp, so a bass just through it will sound quite nice without any further processing. And if you are going to feed a guitar into an amp sim in your DAW, it provides a nice, warm, harmonically rich signal onto disk and really improves the amp sim sound. Actually, a guitar straight through it without any sim is quite a nice sound, just add some reverb. You can drive it a little bit and get a little soft tube distortion.
I use the 610 fairly often, on both the DI and mic pre-amp fronts.
|
johnnyV
Max Output Level: -48.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2677
- Joined: 2010/02/22 11:46:33
- Location: Here, in my chair
- Status: offline
Re:Direct Input boxes - what am I listening for?
2010/05/20 11:03:52
(permalink)
hey Droddey, for $500 buck it better sound damn good..:>
Derf- You might want to keep the 1202 mixer, You won't get much for it and they are actually very good little mixers for the price. The Mike pre amps are above average. When I said a guitar into the 1/4 inputs sounds bad that's not because the mixer is crappy, Its just the wrong interface for electric guitar. My Yamaha acoustic which has a pre amp sound excellent. I use the 1202 for live solo gigs for 4 years now and its been 100% dependable. The EFX are limited, I only use #1 and #52. I've leard over the years to keep any peice of gear thats been useful. For example I use it as a monitor send to the headphones for recording the band.
Sonar X3e Studio - Waiting for Professional Scarlett 6i6Yamaha Gear= 01v - NSM 10 - DTX 400 - MG82cx Roland Gear= A 49- GR 50 - TR 505 - Boss pedalsTascam Gear= DR 40 - US1641 -Mackie Gear= Mix 8 - SRM 350's i5 Z97 3.2GHZ quad 16 Gig RAM W 8.1 home buildTaylor mini GS - G& L Tribute Tele - 72 Fender Princeton - TC BH 250 - Mooer and Outlaw Pedals Korg 05/RW
|
derFunkenstein
Max Output Level: -76 dBFS
- Total Posts : 735
- Joined: 2009/05/05 16:15:24
- Status: offline
Re:Direct Input boxes - what am I listening for?
2010/05/20 11:25:25
(permalink)
Ah, I see. Thanks JohnnyV, I'm glad to see it's not a total waste. Mine's not the FX version, but hopefully the pre-amps in yours and mine are the same. The only thing is I kind of wish I'd held out for the Fast Track Pro instead of the regular Fast Track, since the Fast Track doesn't have enough line level inputs to get sound out of the mixer. I may return it just for that reason, or I might hold onto it for small recording stuff with my laptop and get an FT Pro for the desktop. Or better yet, maybe I'll get a 2496, since it has what I'd need without paying for extra preamps. edit: you know what, no it doesn't. I'd need a DI box for the mixer again if I got a 2496. Forget that idea.
post edited by derFunkenstein - 2010/05/20 11:47:33
|
droddey
Max Output Level: -24 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5147
- Joined: 2007/02/09 03:44:49
- Location: Mountain View, CA
- Status: offline
Re:Direct Input boxes - what am I listening for?
2010/05/20 15:23:43
(permalink)
The 610 is very good. It's a recreation of the pre-amp section of a vintage 60's Bill Putnam (who went on to create UA) recording console. It's got a very vintage sound. It really helps if you are DI'ing in guitars to them put an amp sim on, to provide a much richer signal to the amp sim to work with.
And on bass, at least for non-aggressive type stuff, it really kills as a bass DI and sounds wonderful. I use it with a modestly priced ribbon mic here lately to record real amp'd guitar and the combination is gorgeous.
|
The Maillard Reaction
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 31918
- Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
- Status: offline
Re:Direct Input boxes - what am I listening for?
2010/05/20 21:45:58
(permalink)
I use a LA-610 as a bass guitar direct box.
I like it a bunch.
|
johnnyV
Max Output Level: -48.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2677
- Joined: 2010/02/22 11:46:33
- Location: Here, in my chair
- Status: offline
Re:Direct Input boxes - what am I listening for?
2010/05/22 13:23:46
(permalink)
i bought the tascam us 1641 for 300 bucks 16x 4
Sonar X3e Studio - Waiting for Professional Scarlett 6i6Yamaha Gear= 01v - NSM 10 - DTX 400 - MG82cx Roland Gear= A 49- GR 50 - TR 505 - Boss pedalsTascam Gear= DR 40 - US1641 -Mackie Gear= Mix 8 - SRM 350's i5 Z97 3.2GHZ quad 16 Gig RAM W 8.1 home buildTaylor mini GS - G& L Tribute Tele - 72 Fender Princeton - TC BH 250 - Mooer and Outlaw Pedals Korg 05/RW
|