Upright
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Master Bus EQ question
Hello everyone,
I'm having a little trouble understanding something.... If I have a project that contains many tracks of audio,... hi hats, cymbals, kicks, snares and and onther instruments with all instruments tracked out separately what would be the benefit to applying EQ to the Master bus as oppose to the specific track that I feel needs attention? I apply most of my EQ'ing to the individual tracks which makes me to wonder if there would ever be a reason to apply EQ to the Master.
Thank you in advance. :D
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CJaysMusic
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Re:Master Bus EQ question
2010/02/27 10:19:09
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If I have a project that contains many tracks of audio,... hi hats, cymbals, kicks, snares and and onther instruments with all instruments tracked out separately what would be the benefit to applying EQ to the Master bus as oppose to the specific track that I feel needs attention? I apply most of my EQ'ing to the individual tracks which makes me to wonder if there would ever be a reason to apply EQ to the Master. Thank you in advance. :D I apply EQ to both. Tracks bus's and the master bus. Using EQ on the master bus effets the whole mix. Using EQ on a track effects the track only. I usually just put a highpass filter on themaster bus with a linear phase EQ. I set the highpass at around 40 to 50. Just enough to take out the very very lows. I laso use a multiband compressor on themaster bus and this acts somewhat liek an EQ also Its good to use EQ on tracks and the master bus and bus's. Cj
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jamesyoyo
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Re:Master Bus EQ question
2010/02/27 11:06:42
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The benefit is to get a certain sound for the song. Applying eq can dramatically change it's appeal. Take any VST EQ and run it on the Master buss. Go through the presets for Dance, Rock, Pop, etc. Totally different flavor for each.
But if it sounded perfect already, why would you want to mess with it?
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Philip
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Re:Master Bus EQ question
2010/02/27 15:22:28
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+1 to all thoughts.
For me, its oft extremely important apply some EQ to the Master.
... gently when in doubt.
For example, my 'offensive' harmonics predictably pile up at 0-40Hz, 250-300Hz, 600Hz, 1.2 kHz, 3.5Khz and/or 10-20Khz levels, especially in congested rock mixes.
Also, a narrow 47Hz boost 'oft sounds good' to my ears (on the master ... it gives bass-line+kick+lower harmonics some 'group force', methinks)
It gets extremely precarious for me to summate/quantitize EQ at the track level alone.
Of course, sweeping the EQ on the master buss is fair game for me. But for some curious reasons, IIRC, some master engineers don't EQ sweep ... (ear damage or something?)
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bitflipper
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Re:Master Bus EQ question
2010/02/27 16:11:10
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I apply most of my EQ'ing to the individual tracks which makes me to wonder if there would ever be a reason to apply EQ to the Master. It is often unnecessary to apply EQ to the master bus at all. Leave that to your mastering engineer, who will be better able to discern what correction is needed. If you find that more than a tiny amount of EQ is needed on the 2-bus, take that as an indication that you have a problem with your mix. The best approach is to go back into the mix and find a way to make the correction at the track level. If your master bus is too boomy, use track EQ and levels to bring the bass elements down. If it needs to be brighter, revisit your brightest instruments and EQ or raise them individually.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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Upright
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Re:Master Bus EQ question
2010/02/27 19:15:20
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Perfect,.....this definite helps me understand the mixing process a little better. Thank you for the time and replies. 
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Master Bus EQ question
2010/02/27 19:37:21
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Dave is certainly correct in saying that any major EQ issues are best fixed at the mix level.
Overall EQ to the music however is something that the mastering engineer can do or you can do if you are mastering your own music.
If you are mastering your own material then leave some time between the mix and the mastering eg a week. When you start applying an overall EQ to the whole mix you can achieve something that you can never do with individual track EQ's. And that is to be able to change the whole overall sound of the mix. Firstly you should not have to be making any drastic changes here either. I find the mix can often get a little clogged around the 200 to 300 Hz area and a little dip there eg -1 or -2db can make a huge difference to the sound of the mix. Also the mids sometimes need a little push from around 500 to 2 Khz maybe and only by +1.5 db or so will also change the track seriously!
Also the extreme ends of the spectrum often benefit from a little shelving eq here and there. Usually the mix is too bright treble wise and you might just need to shelve things down by about -2 or -3db. (8 Khz and above)
As I have often said when you are doing this you need to have a well mixed and mastered reference CD on hand to instantly compare to. (Check out David Gilmour's 'On an Island' to see what subtle treble is all about!!!! ) Also make sure your monitoring levels are calibrated too eg around 85 db SPL while you are doing all this. If you are attempting an overall EQ at 105 db SPL or 65 db SPL you are wasting your time!
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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Legion
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Re:Master Bus EQ question
2010/02/27 20:11:48
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As people have pointed out, track EQ changes the sound of a particular instrument while 2-bus EQW chenges the sound of the song as a whole. First make your track sound as good as it can mixing and then, only if you master your own material and let your ears rest from the tunes a few days if you do, apply some subtle EQ to the 2 bus to make it sound like similar recordings if you want to. If you have to make more drastic EQ changes than, say, 3 dB then you should probably fix it in the mix instead.
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jimmyrage
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Re:Master Bus EQ question
2010/02/28 05:43:53
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Other than using high and low pass filters on just about everything , I usually end up making the most drastic eq changes on drums. I usually high pass overheads at around 700-800. Snare can get kinda radical sometimes. Generaly carving out some low mids and adding a touch of upper mids/ highs in the kick, but nothing major . Nothing on the master buss in the mix stage. If everything was recorded well, only slight eq changes are needed in the mastering stage. Everyone has their own style. Whatever works for you and the song you're working on.
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Master Bus EQ question
2010/02/28 06:48:50
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Hi jimmyrage, here is something to think about. And this is only an idea to try. Instead of putting a high pass filter on your drum overheads at 700 to 800 Hz, try this. Pull all the close drums mikes down and try doing the opposite to the overheads. Try using eq to get the drum sound you are after from the overheads only. Remove any high pass filters and let the overheads drum sound through in full. Use eq especially in the low end. The overheads tend to miss the kick a bit and for obvious reasons but sometimes a bit of low end eq can really bring that back to life. With a bit of effort a killer drum sound is possible from the overheads only. Then bring back the kick and snare at a lower level for some close reinforcement. You may have to flip the phase of the kick and snare as after equing the overheads the kick and snare may not do good to the drum sound but a phase test will prove this. They may also be in phase and you wont have to alter the phase. This type of drum sound has a bit more air around it and will be a little more roomy so to speak but equally as nice as the close miked sound we also love with the overheads doing mainly cymbals only. Apart from the kick, the overheads are actually getting the whole drum kit in its glory. So many times when I mix I find the snare is too loud (this is very obvious when mixing at a very low volume) and using the snare that is in the overheads is more often perfect. It is not a bad idea to record overheads with mikes that have a very full range sound rather than a toppy thin sound, then you can do what I am suggesting easily. This is a little off topic as the OP was about using eq over the stereo mix but just a thought on drum miking and mixing.
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2010/02/28 06:50:50
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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guitartrek
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Re:Master Bus EQ question
2010/02/28 08:53:24
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Jeff Evans
Hi jimmyrage, here is something to think about. And this is only an idea to try. Instead of putting a high pass filter on your drum overheads at 700 to 800 Hz, try this. Pull all the close drums mikes down and try doing the opposite to the overheads. Try using eq to get the drum sound you are after from the overheads only. Remove any high pass filters and let the overheads drum sound through in full. Use eq especially in the low end. The overheads tend to miss the kick a bit and for obvious reasons but sometimes a bit of low end eq can really bring that back to life. With a bit of effort a killer drum sound is possible from the overheads only. Then bring back the kick and snare at a lower level for some close reinforcement. You may have to flip the phase of the kick and snare as after equing the overheads the kick and snare may not do good to the drum sound but a phase test will prove this. They may also be in phase and you wont have to alter the phase.
This type of drum sound has a bit more air around it and will be a little more roomy so to speak but equally as nice as the close miked sound we also love with the overheads doing mainly cymbals only.
Apart from the kick, the overheads are actually getting the whole drum kit in its glory. So many times when I mix I find the snare is too loud (this is very obvious when mixing at a very low volume) and using the snare that is in the overheads is more often perfect.
It is not a bad idea to record overheads with mikes that have a very full range sound rather than a toppy thin sound, then you can do what I am suggesting easily.
This is a little off topic as the OP was about using eq over the stereo mix but just a thought on drum miking and mixing.
That's interesting. I changed the way I process drums last year to bring in a lot of the overhead mics on my kick, snare and toms. I'm probably 50/50 close mic to overhead mic - with different EQ's on each. This made significant improvements in my drum sounds. It takes some experimentation.
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Philip
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Re:Master Bus EQ question
2010/02/28 10:22:18
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+1 to all divergent thoughts (at my intermediate level). Thanks Jeff for your pearls (again).
I strongly recommend (to the Op) that he master his own mixes, i.e., as per Legion, above (unless the Op is striving for elusive pop glory and/or commercialization)
JMO:
1) The Song is its own entity and signature (separate from the individual instruments) and demands the mixing-artist's loving care and completion.
2) Unless your *mastering engineer* gives you his/her parameters, you're stuck forever in his/her web. The song can no longer evolve.
3) If you can 'master' on the track, buss, or stem level, you can certainly master at the song level.
4) Mastering in Ozone is the reasonable standard for perhaps 90% of us.
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jimmyrage
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Re:Master Bus EQ question
2010/02/28 11:55:30
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Thanks for the advise. Actually you got me thinking. I sometimes use only 2 overheads 1 kick and 1 snare mike. Usually a recorder mans setup, in which case I don't high pass the overheads. In fact I sometimes use hardly any eq at all. However when I use seperate tom and room mikes, I automatically out of habit high pass the overheads. Probably not always the best choice. It will keep some of the kick and snare out of the overheads, if that's what you want but dosen't sound as natural. I may re-think some of the other habitual things I do as well , such as high passing all guitars around 200, or putting a compressor on my drum buss.
Hi jimmyrage, here is something to think about. And this is only an idea to try. Instead of putting a high pass filter on your drum overheads at 700 to 800 Hz, try this. Pull all the close drums mikes down and try doing the opposite to the overheads. Try using eq to get the drum sound you are after from the overheads only. Remove any high pass filters and let the overheads drum sound through in full. Use eq especially in the low end. The overheads tend to miss the kick a bit and for obvious reasons but sometimes a bit of low end eq can really bring that back to life. With a bit of effort a killer drum sound is possible from the overheads only. Then bring back the kick and snare at a lower level for some close reinforcement. You may have to flip the phase of the kick and snare as after equing the overheads the kick and snare may not do good to the drum sound but a phase test will prove this. They may also be in phase and you wont have to alter the phase.
This type of drum sound has a bit more air around it and will be a little more roomy so to speak but equally as nice as the close miked sound we also love with the overheads doing mainly cymbals only.
Apart from the kick, the overheads are actually getting the whole drum kit in its glory. So many times when I mix I find the snare is too loud (this is very obvious when mixing at a very low volume) and using the snare that is in the overheads is more often perfect.
It is not a bad idea to record overheads with mikes that have a very full range sound rather than a toppy thin sound, then you can do what I am suggesting easily.
This is a little off topic as the OP was about using eq over the stereo mix but just a thought on drum miking and mixing.
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Upright
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Re:Master Bus EQ question
2010/02/28 12:01:51
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Ah,.....I see. Thanks guys so much for the pointers. This info helps alot.
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Guitarhacker
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Re:Master Bus EQ question
2010/02/28 14:36:47
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IF... I had each drum in a seperate track... I would:
1. Apply EQ to the specific track ...IF it was needed.
2. Send all the drums to a sub buss where I could apply a "whole drum kit" EQ if it was needed. This gives tonal control on the kit sound and also allows you to easily raise the entire kit or lower it in the mix if needed without having to touch the track levels.
The limiting factor in EQing tracks deals with computer speed (CPU cycles get sucked up by FX) and how many FX your platform can run at the same time... some have a limit.
Buss use does allow you to use less FX in the individual tracks ...as in when you are sending several (ex:3) guitar tracks to a buss.... you can use one reverb to cover these several "like kind tracks" to save having to use 3 verbs in the individual tracks
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Upright
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Re:Master Bus EQ question
2010/02/28 15:25:29
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Philip
+1 to all divergent thoughts (at my intermediate level). Thanks Jeff for your pearls (again).
I strongly recommend (to the Op) that he master his own mixes, i.e., as per Legion, above (unless the Op is striving for elusive pop glory and/or commercialization)
JMO:
1) The Song is its own entity and signature (separate from the individual instruments) and demands the mixing-artist's loving care and completion.
2) Unless your *mastering engineer* gives you his/her parameters, you're stuck forever in his/her web. The song can no longer evolve.
3) If you can 'master' on the track, buss, or stem level, you can certainly master at the song level.
4) Mastering in Ozone is the reasonable standard for perhaps 90% of us.
I think you've summed it up for me with this post. I am not in any way striving for pop glory or commercialization,....I just want a mix that I'm happy with. I guess the bottom line is- If I going to be doing everything myself( no Mastering engineer involved) to achieve the sound I'm going for, I'll need to pay attention to EQ'ing on all tracks.
Thanks guys.
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Upright
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Re:Master Bus EQ question
2010/02/28 15:35:02
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Guitarhacker
IF... I had each drum in a seperate track... I would:
1. Apply EQ to the specific track ...IF it was needed.
2. Send all the drums to a sub buss where I could apply a "whole drum kit" EQ if it was needed. This gives tonal control on the kit sound and also allows you to easily raise the entire kit or lower it in the mix if needed without having to touch the track levels.
The limiting factor in EQing tracks deals with computer speed (CPU cycles get sucked up by FX) and how many FX your platform can run at the same time... some have a limit.
Buss use does allow you to use less FX in the individual tracks ...as in when you are sending several (ex:3) guitar tracks to a buss.... you can use one reverb to cover these several "like kind tracks" to save having to use 3 verbs in the individual tracks
Ah,.....such a wealth of information to be read in this thread. I do understand the practice of sending multiple tracks to one buss for FX but I had not considered grouping my drum tracks to a single buss for EQ'ing purposes....I'm learning more and more.
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Middleman
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Re:Master Bus EQ question
2010/02/28 16:50:32
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Jeff's approach is the one I use as well for drums. Build the drums from the overheads, that adds a lot of depth to the mix and puts the drums up behind the music. Kick excluded as it generally takes center stage with the bass & vocal. (I also put the panning 70% both sides to narrow the drums. This reserves more space extreme left & right for guitars, delays, reverbs etc.
If I want a mastered mock up type sound I will do as CJ recommends which is to put a high pass (I use 20-30Hz depending on the mix) on the master buss but I also have that EQ provide a low pass as well at 12KHz to make it tape sounding. This rounds off extreme lows but just as important extreme highs which tend to reveal themselves more in the digital realm.
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AT
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Re:Master Bus EQ question
2010/02/28 18:00:36
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There should be no reason to put EQ as standard on the mix bus unless:
you have a nice bit of outboard analog EQ that adds a "sound" you like to the overall mix - even w/o any EQ changes;
are trying to get a CD to "sound" the same across songs.
Unless, of course, you prefer an digital EQ across the mix bus. It is all in how you want to work and the techniques you develop. In general, tho, I would mix w/o anything on the master bus and save master bus effects for mastering. For comps/limiters, you can always raise the level of a song in mastering. It will change the way the song sounds some (even it is clean), but you will learn how you mix sounds after mastering.
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Master Bus EQ question
2010/02/28 18:38:57
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I should add that the ideas I expressed for drum sounds and overheads etc does depend on the material you are woking with. Neither the ultra close drum sound or overhead sound is more correct than the other. It does depend a lot on the material and the client too as they may want a certain type of drum sound and you have to take that into consideration.
jimmyrage you mentioned putting high pass filters on guitars at say 200 Hz and that is OK but be careful here too, I have found with guitars (especially distorted) it is not a bad idea to keep some of the low end in the sound but just stop short of very low end getting through. You have to experiment there with the bass player in the mix. Guitars can go down a little lower than 200 and still be out of the way of the bass. (eg 100 Hz high pass instead)
Guitarhacker is also on the right track by putting drums through their own buss. That is always a great idea. I tend to use the built in channel eq's for individual drum things then the drum buss can get some compression and some eq as well as it can make a big difference. (compressor before EQ too on the drum buss)
With regards to overall EQ of the music, mastering is still the best place to do it and what I have found is that no matter how great a mix is, when you listen to it a week later with fresh ears there is always some eq that can be applied even if its minimal and the music will then still come out just that little bit better again. You dont need analog eq's either. (although they do sound good!) The 64 bit mastering Eq in Sonar is excellent for this application. AT is also very right in getting a bunch of tracks to sound similar for an album. I tend to choose one great track and get it right first (while comparing to a pro mixed and mastered CD in the same genre) then adjust the other tracks to match it and the EQ is one process that can achieve that track matching very well.
Middleman I also agree with taming the very low and high ends of the spectrum. I still do that in mastering so I have always got a version of the track with everything in it. If you are writing soundtracks for TV it is very important to control how much bottom end goes out in your mix. Very deep notes will never be heard and they just suck up a lot of wasted energy. I even drop things off below 60 Hz or so and quickly as well (very steep HPF) for TV and radio stuff. The bass does not suffer much but there is none of that silly subsonic stuff happening. But for a Hip Hop track that is going into a club however with serious sub woofers in there I make sure ALL the bottom end gets through. A lot of that music has bass parts that are an octave down from normal bass range eg 20 Hz! I love it!
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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Middleman
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Re:Master Bus EQ question
2010/02/28 19:28:37
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For the sake of clarity, I just mix into the EQ, as well as a few other things. When it goes to outside mastering, I take out most everything except on occasion some 2 buss compression and let the mastering people carve the range.
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ba_midi
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Re:Master Bus EQ question
2010/03/05 02:27:26
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I just saw this thread, so I'm going to add my 2 cents ... Most everything that has been said I agree with - but I'll add some things that always seem NOT to be mentioned for some reason. 1- EQ in general depends on the type of music - but also, and just as importantly - HOW the music is recorded. MEANING: there is a huge difference in how one might go about EQ'ing (and compressing) a project that is recorded mostly acoustically or mic'd. See more on this below (my summary). 2- Master Bus can certainly be used for tweaking the 'overall' sound of a mix. And, some say don't put too much of anything on the Master Bus. I disagree. I think -- again -- it depends on the style of music. Dance/House/Electornica, etc, will call for a very different mixing approach then Country for example. 3- With all that said- and as was said previously - if you find yourself really having to do a LOT of 'tweaking' on the Master Bus, then it might be better to shut off all the FX/processing and go back to the individual tracks and get those 'more' right first. Summary: Do what's necessary to get the sound you want, but learn all you can (and keep learning) how the pros do it, and comparing to mixes you like. Nothing replaces knowledge and experience. So experiment A LOT too. There's always some discussion about boosting or cutting this or that frequency. The problem I have with those comments is that they are usually detached from style. For example - some might say "boost a little in the 2K range". Well there are some great mixes that actually CUT that range to leave room for the vocalist or give the mix a certain sound. So I say - learn what the frequencies are, how they affect the actual music (fundamentals and harmonics) and how they affect human hearing, etc (ie, the so-called "Magic Frequencies") and then find YOUR groove with them. I'm not a great mixer, but I know a good one when I hear it. When I listen to mixes I did even a few weeks ago, I almost hate them compared to how I would mix them today. And the more I experiment, learn, and experiment some more, the better I get. This is true for anyone doing so I'm sure. It's all about ear development. But there really is a "difference" between music made "In The Box" using all synths/samplers/plugins than music made with Mic's (and electric guitars, etc). The rules are NOT the same. And this is something that is OFTEN left out or overlooked in these types of discussions (imho). Lastly - MAKE SURE YOU HAVE GOOD MONITORS or nothing will tranlaste to other speakers well. Period. You have to be able to trust your monitors (and get to "know" them), and know they are producing the sound correctly at all frequencies. And that is my main point: Knowing the freqs are important, but the application of rules/guidelines ARE different for fully ITB ("In The Box") music in my opinion.
post edited by ba_midi - 2010/03/05 02:28:59
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u2bonoman
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Re:Master Bus EQ question
2010/03/11 11:10:04
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I will NEVER leave mixing decisions to the ME. This goes for EQ, mix buss compression, and saturation.
So if I need an EQ on the mix buss to effect my entire mix, I use it. Typically nothing more than a little 14-16k for air and a HPF set at around 40. Nothing extreme, as otherwise I'd just need to rethink individual tracks.
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Dave King
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Re:Master Bus EQ question
2010/03/12 15:22:06
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Some VERY slight tweaking on a Multi-band compressor on the master bus can really enhance a mix. But you have to do it with a VERY light touch.
Dave King www.davekingmusic.com SONAR X2 Producer 64-Bit
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