Pre-Amp - Mic Combos

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Philip
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2010/05/03 10:23:52 (permalink)

Pre-Amp - Mic Combos

What combo's are good and what aren't?  Most here would conclude that this link in the vox signal chain is most critical to your vox (and other 'live') recordings ... enabling performance to be recorded to the uttermost.
 
I realize your combos are oft different with guitar (vs vox) but just please share your thoughts (at any level).
 
TBH, Zo, got me interested in posting this.    So I thought I'd bring it up again.
 
I.e.,  I'll state:
1) RME ff 400 $ucks as a pre-amp for most of my mics (in the phantom power especially).  It probably fairs well with my SM-5? dynamic mics (but so does practically any cheap sound interface.
2) Portico 5016 works exceedingly well for the AKG 414 and Pearlman (with its own power supply) mics.  It even tames much essing.  (I now plug the Portico into the RME balanced input (#5))
 
 
 
 

Philip  
(Isa 5:12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the LORD)

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    Beagle
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    Re:Pre-Amp - Mic Combos 2010/05/03 10:51:35 (permalink)
    Philip - this is a good thread starter - I'm interested in what others are using for vox as well.

    but your combos are much more expensive than mine!  I would LOVE to have a Portico or similar and the mics!  well...anyway...

    I have gone through several lower end mics that I did not care for.  MXL-990, MCA-SP1, MXL-V63M (which is a decent one for the money) and the M-audio Nova (which is also really good for the price). 

    I've also used an m-audio Audio Buddy for pre.  it sucked.  and that's being nice.  it really sucked and was a waste of my money.

    currently I use a Shure KSM-27 and an ART TPS II pre.  I've been lusting over the Portico or other Neves or Neve clones (I've been seriously thinking about a Golden Age Pre 73 which is a 1073 clone).

    I'll be watching this thread with great interest!

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    dlogan
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    Re:Pre-Amp - Mic Combos 2010/05/03 11:09:55 (permalink)
    My PreSonus Eureka works well with all of my mics - a Blueberry, a RODE NT1A and NT1000 and an AKG Perception 220. Since it's more of a channel strip than just a mic pre, being able to adjust the EQ as well as adjusting the impedence and saturation on the mic pre, makes it very versatile. Of course this could be done in the box, but it's nice for me to tweak my incoming signal. I've never used a higher quality preamp than the Eureka, so maybe I don't know what I'm missing. But for a home studio where I only have 1 good preamp, I'm very happy with my choice.  I only wish it was dual channel!!
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    ShadDOH
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    Re:Pre-Amp - Mic Combos 2010/05/03 12:10:02 (permalink)
    I like my chain?

    Neuman U87Ai ----> Avalon 737VT

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    tcm123
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    Re:Pre-Amp - Mic Combos 2010/05/03 13:11:26 (permalink)
    i have been having very good results with the great river me-1nv and either a shure ksm27 or a shure ksm313.
    massively different techniques are required but i am happy with what i'm getting.
    i'll mic a guitar with the ksm313 ran into the gr and a sm57 ran into my rme ff800 pre's.
    so far so good.
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    Philip
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    Re:Pre-Amp - Mic Combos 2010/05/03 13:19:56 (permalink)
    Thanks all!

    IIRC, I think Zo validated the U87-Avalon combo (about $3k and $2.3k respectively).  And, yes, D'Oh's vocs sound (to me) consistently excellent (if not a bit warmly saturated) ...

    The PreSonus (about $0.5k) ... like all good pre-amps are single channel (or they co$t big-time).  Apparently dual channel requires a lot of parts.

    Beagle, my $1.2k Neve's Portico (5016) ... also single channel ... delivers the goods (as I cited) ... but its my only excellent pre-amp.  And I'm not sure how well Neuman mics do.  For your 'critical' vox, I can see how this thread may hopefully inspire.
     
    TCM123: As I discovered (to my ears); the RME ff400/800 does not do some tube mics nor condensor mics very well.   But I'm confident your sm57 and other dynamic mics perform well with your ff800 pre-amp.  Thanks for validating that!
     
    Another consideration with the Avalon, unlike my Portico; you can EQ and compress the signal (slightly of course) before it hits the DAW.
    post edited by Philip - 2010/05/03 13:31:21

    Philip  
    (Isa 5:12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the LORD)

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    ShadDOH
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    Re:Pre-Amp - Mic Combos 2010/05/03 13:44:57 (permalink)
    Yes, I eq and compress slightly on the way in.

    Please pray for Foxwolfen, pray for peace for him. And an end to any deception, anger, and hatred around him or influencing him.   


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    Philip
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    Re:Pre-Amp - Mic Combos 2010/05/03 17:30:23 (permalink)

    I share the following article but don't agree with the overall jist of it, personally.  Jimmy may appreciate this.

    IMHO: A pre-amp is my studio lifeblood; nothing stinks worse for me in my 'ordinary vox' signal chain than a bad pre-amp combined with a bad condensor mic.  De-essing alone drives me crazy with some pres/mics.  But here's the article for you all to ponder on:

    --Philip

    Microphone Preamp Mistakes and Lessons

    By  Brandon Drury | Published  06/5/2007 | Mic Preamps Rating:

    Before You Buy A High End Preamp

     After recording pretty much full time sense 2001, I've made about one hundred billion mistakes. One of the biggest mistakes of all has involved preamps. Yes, I know that just about every recording forum on the planet goes on and on and on about how important preamps are. They talk and talk and talk about the differences between one Neve 1073 clone and another Neve 1073 clone. This is all fine and dandy. If everything in your recording chain is so perfect that the difference between one 1073 clone and another 1073 clone becomes significant, than you are SMOKING!! In fact, if your chain is that good, your next recording should have no problem competing with major label recordings. You should probably look into booking major label caliber talent immediately.
    The truth is there are very few singers who deserve to get to sing through a $2,000 preamp. Let me reword that a little bit. There are very few singers who will sound noticeably “better” through X preamp. A bad singer sounds bad through anything. The only time, in my opinion, a great preamp even matters is when the singers is GREAT! When I say “GREAT”, I mean that this singer sends chills down your spine. I mean you really think you've got something completely magical in this person and you feel lucky to record them. Few “local” singers are going to have what it takes.

    If you think you are going to make up for a piss poor performer by switching to a $2,000 preamp, you are out of your mind. It's just a volume knob!!!

    My First Preamp
    When I do something, I try to do it right. I always end up falling short of the goal, but that doesn't stop me from going all out. I was reading on forums back in 2001 trying to figure out the gear I needed to start my recording rig. I stumbled on some threads about preamps. I was led to believe that if I didn't have a great, professional preamp costing over $1,000 per channel, I would never be able to crank out pro recordings.
    I remember when it came time to record my first couple of bands, I always made a big deal about the fact that I had a Vintech 1272 Neve clone. I had the “secret weapon death ray” that no other studio in the world could hope to compete with. No, I had a volume knob.
    When listening to my early recordings, they sound like any other dumbass's first recordings. They sound horrible. I have tons of EQ and in general, I basically had no idea what I was doing. I can say, without a doubt, the $1,000 of cash I dumped on the Vintech 1272 before I even know how to plugin my audio interface had made absolutely good for the entire first year of my recording career.

    Lesson: Jerks on forums like to repeat something they hear without any knowledge of the subject and without taking into consideration your situation. They are just repeating words they don't understand and sucking you in to something you may not want to do.

    Preamp Mistake #1
    I like to think like a businessman every once in a while (if I was a real businessman I wouldn't be recording at all!!). When a construction company owner upgrades his/her tools, the motivation is because it's going to make the company money or save the company money in the long run.

    Well, no preamp upgrade (or any gear upgrade for that matter) has every allowed me to make an immediate increase in the amount of money I charge for my services. In other words, my clients didn't seam to think that my recording quality had improved based only on gear.

    The way engineers talk in forums, you'd think that if you listened to a catalog of my mixes, it would be brutally obvious where I made preamp upgrades. This just hasn't happened.

    Lesson: Local bands couldn't hear the difference in my new gear and weren't willing to pay extra for it. Interestingly enough, taking the time to really produce a band without any real regard for time has had a dramatic and immediate improvement in my recording quality.

    Preamp Mistake #2
    These days I'm very picky about who I work with. There was a day when I recorded anyone and everyone I could . Most of the time you found people with mediocre talent and mediocre gear. In other words, the sound these bands made was...mediocre (or substandard when compared to immensely talented major label bands).
    Well, I ended up recording one of the better local bands who happened to sound damn good. They were much tighter than what I was used to at the time and every member of that band took lots of pride in his instrument. The guitars turned out great.
    It turns out that I ended up getting lots and lots of compliments for my guitar tone on that recording from local guys. Other bands I had recorded told me they were the best guitars I had ever recorded.
    It's interesting because it's not like I had anything to do with the tone of those guitars. I put a 57 on a speaker and ran it into a Mackie preamp. That's it.
    So why was I getting compliments for the tone captured by a SM 57 and a Mackie preamp when I had recorded many other guitars with Royer R121 ribbon mics and Vintech Neve 1272 preamps? It's simple. The sound was better before it even hit the amp. In other words, the guitar player sounded better.

    Lesson: The source is WAY more important than the preamp. I'm not saying that a person should not have great preamps. I'm just saying that it only makes sense to invest a ton of cash into preamps if the engineer is consistently working with musicians capable of putting out great tone to begin with. Even then, the results are fairly subtle.

    Preamp Mistake #3
    When I was at the Wagener Workshop back in Jan 06, we had the chance to listen to just about every preamp under the sun. After Wagener had taught us specifically what to listen for, it was obvious that a great preamp is going to do something to the sound. Of course, we ended up using drastically different preamps on every source we recorded. Meaning, that if you wanted to use exactly what Wagener used, you'd have to dump about $30,000 in preamps to get this selection. Of course, you have to understand the kind situation Wagener had. He has a real facility for making records with great isolation between is live room and control room. He has a thunderous understanding of audio engineer and producing. He's put more hours into recording than I have probably been alive. He was working with people who were top notch musicians and had driving 5 hours to record with Wagener. In fact, they rented out a house while recording their record with Wagener.
    When I came home I was all excited about applying my new knowledge. Well, I quickly realized that my recording facility was completely inadequate when compared to Wagener's facility. Then I realized that the musicians I was dealing with were not on the same level as the musicians that Wagener was dealing with.
    Not even accounting for musicianship, I noticed that drummers were showing up with year old drum heads. Bass players were content with recording with strings from 6 months ago. I was recording guitar players using fizzy amps. Basically, I was dealing with amateurs who were expecting professional results.
    Of course, Wagener had amazingly accurate monitoring. He used ADAM SA-3s that cost around $5k for the pair. His room was not mega mega treated, but what you heard in the mix position was exactly what you heard in the car....everyone's car. I certainly didn't have this (I don't have this now). Focusing on preamps when your mixing environment is inaccurate is about like buying a Lamborgini while you live in a mobile home.

    Lesson: It's easy to get excited about preamps when you are out of your context. If your reality is not so perfect, a preamp isn't going to make all that difference. A pro preamp has no business recording a musician who behaves like an amateur.

    Preamp Mistake #4
    Going back to the Wagener Workshop, Wagener would let us (the 4 dudes attending the workshop) listen to each track one at a time. In fact, he would leave the room while we listened for about 30 minutes. We, as a group, would try to pick out what we liked. The differences were very subtle between most preamps.
    When we had our time to listen to vocal mics is where it got really interesting, actually. We listened to all of them over and over eventually deciding on the one or two that we liked (out of about 12 mics). Immediately, Wagener came in and listened. He basically said “YIKES!” on one of our favorite mics. In other words, there was no way in hell that Wagener would ever use that mic in this situation even though all the workshop attendees did like it.

    Lesson: We all have our own way of hearing. What one person loves another person is going to hate. What one person loves may eventually be a total nitemare for him/her later. Example: Maybe one mic sounds nice, bright, and clear making other mics sound dull and boring. Then, we may find that this mic is causing excessive sibilance on other systems.

    Preamp Mistake #5
    Going back to the vocal preamp shootout. I remember that Wagener loved the sound of one certain preamp. It was the dullest one of the bunch. It had kind of an almost muddy sound to it. I thought he was crazy, but I didn't open my mouth because I trusted the dude. Well, the entire time we tracked it didn't make sense why we would want such a dull preamp. (It was somebody's version of a 1272). Well, I figured it out down the road. Wagener picked a dark mic and a very dark preamp. He recorded with a good 12dB of reduction on the vocal with a Distressor. I thought this was A LOT of compression, but I went with it. When mix time came, he added A LOT more compression. I want to see he hit it with another 12dB of reduction, but it's been a year and a half. So basically, Wagener completely crushed the vocal with compression. Of course, compression brings up the quiet stuff and make the loud stuff not so loud. Using this much compression essentially brought the sound of the reverb and noise in the room up by 24dB (which explains why Wagener went well out of his way to deaden the vocals as much as possible). Using this much compression, will bring up the high end and sibilance in a hurry.

    The only way of making sure that sibilance was not killing us after putting 24dB of compression on the vocal was to make sure that it wasn't really there to begin with. Of course, he probably took a billion other precautions in regard to avoiding painful sibilance, but I was too busy learning the big deal stuff to notice the subtle things.

    Lesson: A big reason the pros disagree on what gear they like has a lot to do with how they twist the knobs. I'm guessing that most guys aren't using 24dB of reduction from their compressor on a lead vocal. I'd read about R&B guys using less than 2dB of compression on a vocal. I have no doubts that a guy using only 2dB of compression would have drastically different room acoustics requirements and microphone / preamp requirements. The hard part is deciding how you need to turn the knobs for a given band and deciding which gear would work best with the knobs set that way. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that I thought everything sounded dull while tracking. Towards the very end of mixing, Wagener ended up slapping a Manley EQ on the 2Bus and boosted the high end quite a bit. The entire mix (which was sort of thick and dull) became exciting.

    Conclusion
    If you are new to this and someone is talking you into dumping $1,000-2,000 on a fancy mic preamps, you may want to re-evaluate your priorities. If you are working with substandard musicians, you are an idiot if you dump thousands into mic preamps. If you have horrendous acoustics, you can work around it, but you will be fighting your room every step of the way (both in tracking and in mixing). The preamp will not help with room acoustics, unfortunately. If you are trying to mix in a horrendous room but are spending thousands on preamp , I think my analogy holds true: “It's like buying a Lamborgini while living in a mobile home”.

    post edited by Philip - 2010/05/03 17:40:58

    Philip  
    (Isa 5:12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the LORD)

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    RLD
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    Re:Pre-Amp - Mic Combos 2010/05/03 17:45:36 (permalink)
    "Lesson: Jerks on forums like to repeat something they hear without any knowledge of the subject and without taking into consideration your situation. They are just repeating words they don't understand and sucking you in to something you may not want to do."
    Ouch!...
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    Philip
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    Re:Pre-Amp - Mic Combos 2010/05/03 23:51:52 (permalink)
    Thanks RLD,
    LOL!

    (I always love to read your frank wisdom!)

    I finally settled for a used Avalon 737 (at Musician's Friend ... during their 15% off sale) ... for about $1690 ...

    ... if not for the Avalon's pre-amp compressor to help buffer Philip's varying dynamics and poor mic technique(s).

    Philip  
    (Isa 5:12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the LORD)

    Raised-Again 3http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=12307501
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    MarlboroMan23
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    Re:Pre-Amp - Mic Combos 2010/05/04 00:01:42 (permalink)
    If you are working with substandard musicians, you are an idiot if you dump thousands into mic preamps.

    That kinda makes the assumption that you will always work with substandard musicians or if you record yourself, you are a substandard musician who only deserves cheap preamps.

    I guess before Brandon Drury and his Echo Echo Studios got very picky about who he works with he had a disclaimer that said something like "Since it's highly unlikely a local musician or singer such as yourself is TRULY GREAT I have stocked my studio with only the cheapest gear possible.  Don't worry though, with your limited to non-existent talent it won't matter."

    most authors of novels regarded as classics are dead, classic novels are, therefore, most likely to be written by dead people.
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    ShadDOH
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    Re:Pre-Amp - Mic Combos 2010/05/04 00:14:38 (permalink)
    Philip


    Thanks RLD,
    LOL!

    (I always love to read your frank wisdom!)

    I finally settled for a used Avalon 737 (at Musician's Friend ... during their 15% off sale) ... for about $1690 ...

    ... if not for the Avalon's pre-amp compressor to help buffer Philip's varying dynamics and poor mic technique(s).

    You will not be disappointed. Make sure you  get the manual? It has an excellent guide for settings for anything from vocals with deess to bass, to acoustic guitar, to bass, etc. etc. etc...  Contrats Phillip! 


    Good price too! make sure you warm that puppy up... I was laying down a track with mine today, and I was impatient? So I had it cranked? And then a while later, I looked at the levels and I was banging in to the red? You have to let it warm up for a good 20-30 mins b4 you set levels and go live. Again, I think you'll be very happy with this amp :-)

    Please pray for Foxwolfen, pray for peace for him. And an end to any deception, anger, and hatred around him or influencing him.   


    My stuff is here,  http://www.reverbnation.com/rockinrobby 

     




    #12
    rotaholic
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    Re:Pre-Amp - Mic Combos 2010/05/04 03:48:25 (permalink)
    Ive only got a groove tubes brick pre, but im loving the shure SM7b
    I highly recommend it for vox, male or female. Also great on gat cabs, havent tried accoustic.
    Its a very true mic im finding
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    RLD
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    Re:Pre-Amp - Mic Combos 2010/05/04 09:18:18 (permalink)
    Philip


    Thanks RLD,
    LOL!

    (I always love to read your frank wisdom!)

    I finally settled for a used Avalon 737 (at Musician's Friend ... during their 15% off sale) ... for about $1690 ...

    ... if not for the Avalon's pre-amp compressor to help buffer Philip's varying dynamics and poor mic technique(s).


    Wow...you have a Neve Portico (5016) and an Avalon 737?
    I'm feeling a bit o' G.A.S. coming on...
    (I'm still using the pres on my Behringer mixer)
    post edited by RLD - 2010/05/04 11:50:32
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    jimmyman
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    Re:Pre-Amp - Mic Combos 2010/05/04 11:35:24 (permalink)
    Philip


    I share the following article but don't agree with the overall jist of it, personally.  Jimmy may appreciate this.

    IMHO: A pre-amp is my studio lifeblood; nothing stinks worse for me in my 'ordinary vox' signal chain than a bad pre-amp combined with a bad condensor mic.  De-essing alone drives me crazy with some pres/mics.  But here's the article for you all to ponder on:

    --Philip

    Microphone Preamp Mistakes and Lessons

    By  Brandon Drury | Published  06/5/2007 | Mic Preamps Rating:

    Before You Buy A High End Preamp

     After recording pretty much full time sense 2001, I've made about one hundred billion mistakes. One of the biggest mistakes of all has involved preamps. Yes, I know that just about every recording forum on the planet goes on and on and on about how important preamps are. They talk and talk and talk about the differences between one Neve 1073 clone and another Neve 1073 clone. This is all fine and dandy. If everything in your recording chain is so perfect that the difference between one 1073 clone and another 1073 clone becomes significant, than you are SMOKING!! In fact, if your chain is that good, your next recording should have no problem competing with major label recordings. You should probably look into booking major label caliber talent immediately.
    The truth is there are very few singers who deserve to get to sing through a $2,000 preamp. Let me reword that a little bit. There are very few singers who will sound noticeably “better” through X preamp. A bad singer sounds bad through anything. The only time, in my opinion, a great preamp even matters is when the singers is GREAT! When I say “GREAT”, I mean that this singer sends chills down your spine. I mean you really think you've got something completely magical in this person and you feel lucky to record them. Few “local” singers are going to have what it takes.

    If you think you are going to make up for a piss poor performer by switching to a $2,000 preamp, you are out of your mind. It's just a volume knob!!!

    My First Preamp
    When I do something, I try to do it right. I always end up falling short of the goal, but that doesn't stop me from going all out. I was reading on forums back in 2001 trying to figure out the gear I needed to start my recording rig. I stumbled on some threads about preamps. I was led to believe that if I didn't have a great, professional preamp costing over $1,000 per channel, I would never be able to crank out pro recordings.
    I remember when it came time to record my first couple of bands, I always made a big deal about the fact that I had a Vintech 1272 Neve clone. I had the “secret weapon death ray” that no other studio in the world could hope to compete with. No, I had a volume knob.
    When listening to my early recordings, they sound like any other dumbass's first recordings. They sound horrible. I have tons of EQ and in general, I basically had no idea what I was doing. I can say, without a doubt, the $1,000 of cash I dumped on the Vintech 1272 before I even know how to plugin my audio interface had made absolutely good for the entire first year of my recording career.

    Lesson: Jerks on forums like to repeat something they hear without any knowledge of the subject and without taking into consideration your situation. They are just repeating words they don't understand and sucking you in to something you may not want to do.

    Preamp Mistake #1
    I like to think like a businessman every once in a while (if I was a real businessman I wouldn't be recording at all!!). When a construction company owner upgrades his/her tools, the motivation is because it's going to make the company money or save the company money in the long run.

    Well, no preamp upgrade (or any gear upgrade for that matter) has every allowed me to make an immediate increase in the amount of money I charge for my services. In other words, my clients didn't seam to think that my recording quality had improved based only on gear.

    The way engineers talk in forums, you'd think that if you listened to a catalog of my mixes, it would be brutally obvious where I made preamp upgrades. This just hasn't happened.

    Lesson: Local bands couldn't hear the difference in my new gear and weren't willing to pay extra for it. Interestingly enough, taking the time to really produce a band without any real regard for time has had a dramatic and immediate improvement in my recording quality.

    Preamp Mistake #2
    These days I'm very picky about who I work with. There was a day when I recorded anyone and everyone I could . Most of the time you found people with mediocre talent and mediocre gear. In other words, the sound these bands made was...mediocre (or substandard when compared to immensely talented major label bands).
    Well, I ended up recording one of the better local bands who happened to sound damn good. They were much tighter than what I was used to at the time and every member of that band took lots of pride in his instrument. The guitars turned out great.
    It turns out that I ended up getting lots and lots of compliments for my guitar tone on that recording from local guys. Other bands I had recorded told me they were the best guitars I had ever recorded.
    It's interesting because it's not like I had anything to do with the tone of those guitars. I put a 57 on a speaker and ran it into a Mackie preamp. That's it.
    So why was I getting compliments for the tone captured by a SM 57 and a Mackie preamp when I had recorded many other guitars with Royer R121 ribbon mics and Vintech Neve 1272 preamps? It's simple. The sound was better before it even hit the amp. In other words, the guitar player sounded better.

    Lesson: The source is WAY more important than the preamp. I'm not saying that a person should not have great preamps. I'm just saying that it only makes sense to invest a ton of cash into preamps if the engineer is consistently working with musicians capable of putting out great tone to begin with. Even then, the results are fairly subtle.

    Preamp Mistake #3
    When I was at the Wagener Workshop back in Jan 06, we had the chance to listen to just about every preamp under the sun. After Wagener had taught us specifically what to listen for, it was obvious that a great preamp is going to do something to the sound. Of course, we ended up using drastically different preamps on every source we recorded. Meaning, that if you wanted to use exactly what Wagener used, you'd have to dump about $30,000 in preamps to get this selection. Of course, you have to understand the kind situation Wagener had. He has a real facility for making records with great isolation between is live room and control room. He has a thunderous understanding of audio engineer and producing. He's put more hours into recording than I have probably been alive. He was working with people who were top notch musicians and had driving 5 hours to record with Wagener. In fact, they rented out a house while recording their record with Wagener.
    When I came home I was all excited about applying my new knowledge. Well, I quickly realized that my recording facility was completely inadequate when compared to Wagener's facility. Then I realized that the musicians I was dealing with were not on the same level as the musicians that Wagener was dealing with.
    Not even accounting for musicianship, I noticed that drummers were showing up with year old drum heads. Bass players were content with recording with strings from 6 months ago. I was recording guitar players using fizzy amps. Basically, I was dealing with amateurs who were expecting professional results.
    Of course, Wagener had amazingly accurate monitoring. He used ADAM SA-3s that cost around $5k for the pair. His room was not mega mega treated, but what you heard in the mix position was exactly what you heard in the car....everyone's car. I certainly didn't have this (I don't have this now). Focusing on preamps when your mixing environment is inaccurate is about like buying a Lamborgini while you live in a mobile home.

    Lesson: It's easy to get excited about preamps when you are out of your context. If your reality is not so perfect, a preamp isn't going to make all that difference. A pro preamp has no business recording a musician who behaves like an amateur.

    Preamp Mistake #4
    Going back to the Wagener Workshop, Wagener would let us (the 4 dudes attending the workshop) listen to each track one at a time. In fact, he would leave the room while we listened for about 30 minutes. We, as a group, would try to pick out what we liked. The differences were very subtle between most preamps.
    When we had our time to listen to vocal mics is where it got really interesting, actually. We listened to all of them over and over eventually deciding on the one or two that we liked (out of about 12 mics). Immediately, Wagener came in and listened. He basically said “YIKES!” on one of our favorite mics. In other words, there was no way in hell that Wagener would ever use that mic in this situation even though all the workshop attendees did like it.

    Lesson: We all have our own way of hearing. What one person loves another person is going to hate. What one person loves may eventually be a total nitemare for him/her later. Example: Maybe one mic sounds nice, bright, and clear making other mics sound dull and boring. Then, we may find that this mic is causing excessive sibilance on other systems.

    Preamp Mistake #5
    Going back to the vocal preamp shootout. I remember that Wagener loved the sound of one certain preamp. It was the dullest one of the bunch. It had kind of an almost muddy sound to it. I thought he was crazy, but I didn't open my mouth because I trusted the dude. Well, the entire time we tracked it didn't make sense why we would want such a dull preamp. (It was somebody's version of a 1272). Well, I figured it out down the road. Wagener picked a dark mic and a very dark preamp. He recorded with a good 12dB of reduction on the vocal with a Distressor. I thought this was A LOT of compression, but I went with it. When mix time came, he added A LOT more compression. I want to see he hit it with another 12dB of reduction, but it's been a year and a half. So basically, Wagener completely crushed the vocal with compression. Of course, compression brings up the quiet stuff and make the loud stuff not so loud. Using this much compression essentially brought the sound of the reverb and noise in the room up by 24dB (which explains why Wagener went well out of his way to deaden the vocals as much as possible). Using this much compression, will bring up the high end and sibilance in a hurry.

    The only way of making sure that sibilance was not killing us after putting 24dB of compression on the vocal was to make sure that it wasn't really there to begin with. Of course, he probably took a billion other precautions in regard to avoiding painful sibilance, but I was too busy learning the big deal stuff to notice the subtle things.

    Lesson: A big reason the pros disagree on what gear they like has a lot to do with how they twist the knobs. I'm guessing that most guys aren't using 24dB of reduction from their compressor on a lead vocal. I'd read about R&B guys using less than 2dB of compression on a vocal. I have no doubts that a guy using only 2dB of compression would have drastically different room acoustics requirements and microphone / preamp requirements. The hard part is deciding how you need to turn the knobs for a given band and deciding which gear would work best with the knobs set that way. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that I thought everything sounded dull while tracking. Towards the very end of mixing, Wagener ended up slapping a Manley EQ on the 2Bus and boosted the high end quite a bit. The entire mix (which was sort of thick and dull) became exciting.

    Conclusion
    If you are new to this and someone is talking you into dumping $1,000-2,000 on a fancy mic preamps, you may want to re-evaluate your priorities. If you are working with substandard musicians, you are an idiot if you dump thousands into mic preamps. If you have horrendous acoustics, you can work around it, but you will be fighting your room every step of the way (both in tracking and in mixing). The preamp will not help with room acoustics, unfortunately. If you are trying to mix in a horrendous room but are spending thousands on preamp , I think my analogy holds true: “It's like buying a Lamborgini while living in a mobile home”.


         Phillip
       Thanks for this post and reference. I enjoyed reading it
    not from the info but from just seeing how a studio
    (for hire) owner looks at things. He makes some good
    points (but) his attitude pretty much (nulls) any what
    would be (good) info.

     I think he is bitter and I think it shows. I've read
    his response to people in forums. I'm (not) here
    to bash him at all. And I'll leave it at that.

      I am of course I guess what one would call a
    "maverick" compared to the average view of
    gear and such. The "cost factor" is a point that
    comes to mind for me. I think (for me) I'm just
    burnt on spending money on gear and such.

      Owning "bragging rights" type gear doesn't
    appeal to me now. At one time I felt like a
    bit of a "nobody" compared to those with
    all the "cool" stuff. I do enjoy reading peoples
    remarks about (such as your good threads)
    about the topics.

      I also hope that it's clear that my sometimes
    minimalistic view is just my (where I am in life).
    My musical one that is. I think that gear
    means different things to different people
    and for different reasons.

      I've got an old AT 4033 but I never use it
    anymore. Instead I'm using mics like a MXL
    v67 or a mxl 990. I haven't turned on any
    of my Mic tube pres in so long I cant remember.
    I think maybe it's me going in an opposite
    direction than many others.

      And this comes to mind from reading your
    threads. I get the feeling that many people
    are going for more "color" and I'm going
    for more "black and white".  It's like the
    difference in tracking vocs with a
    "U87 and an avalon" compared to a
    mxlv67 plugged direct into the interface.

      I think maybe the lush quality of the
    boutique gear makes things much easier
    for many people. Of course I'm only
    speculating. There is something that comes
    to mind here when I think of the "vocs"
    (or tracking) anything for that matter.

      The better it sounds while recording the
    more I enjoy it. I tend to (think) less as I
    sing or play. I feel more relaxed and
    comfortable too. However my "better"
    performances (recordings) have come from
    a more (purest) for lack of better words
    sound while tracking.

      When the sound in the cans is good
    but not too lush so to speak I think more
    and work harder. 

    Anyway I'm not so much drawing a conclusion
    as much as thinking about the art of music,
    and gear, and plugs etc. 
     
    #15
    Philip
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    Re:Pre-Amp - Mic Combos 2010/05/04 13:28:51 (permalink)
    Jimmy, your words are always wise and sympathetic to me.

    Last night I recorded a little with my UA4FX (cw-Roland) laptop interface and a Beta Shure 58 (dynamic) in a motel for a backing harmony to a phrase. 

    It was extremely difficult to process this signal with Melodyne Editor (to bring the formant down 4 semi-notes was impossible to my ears).  Fortunately cw's 'V-coder' (I forgot the name) ... worked for this combo-pair.
     
    I fully agree with your use of cw verbs on vocs. 

    "Black and White vs. Color" (dynamic mic signals vs. condensor) ... all recording arts are beautiful ... but both require extensive creative processing and polish ... IMHO ... at my intermediate level.

    Philip  
    (Isa 5:12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the LORD)

    Raised-Again 3http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=12307501
    #16
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