MarlboroMan23
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How Much Limiting for Rock Music?
I'm in the process of redoing some standard rock songs with the PSP Xenon Limiter that I picked up on the recent $99 sale. I was curious how people are using their limiters as far as "home mastering" goes. Do you use them just as a safety to catch any stray overs or do you use them to get louder cds? How much limiting is acceptable and what is too much to your ears on your songs?
It's a difficult balance for me. I know that limiting for the sake of a louder cd degrades audio quality but at the same time I don't want my cd to sound "quiet" compared to others.
This is in the context of general rock format music; electric guitar and bass, vocals, drums.
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CJaysMusic
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Re:How Much Limiting for Rock Music?
2010/05/04 12:41:44
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There isnt any set limit for limiting in any are.You use your knowledge about limiters and you use your ears.
Acceptable parameters is open to personnel preference.
Also, who says it needs limiting? Use what is needed and only needed for your song and you only know whats needed. Its your song, so its you that makes these discussions on ho much limiting to use
Learn how to use limiters and you'll know what to do with it in each and every song.
Just dont over use it. Limters is just like everything else. Over use can kill the life of it and squash it to death.
Your asking what is the threshold between over limiting and using it to it's optimal use. No one can answer this for you. Only you can or the engineer working on your song
Cj
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AT
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Re:How Much Limiting for Rock Music?
2010/05/04 12:57:41
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Marlboro,
it is a crapshoot as far as limiting. Rock is usually mixed loud, so it probably doesn't need as much - except for the obligatory ballad(s). The real problem is trying to make everything sound loud, esp. if you get a busy composition. I was listening to a rock song I did w/ a friend who owns/engineers at a major Dallas studio and complained everytime I tried to make the drums big they go smaller. he smiled and said, "yea, that's a ****."
For mastering here at home I use voxengo's elephant If it is a loud mix (tho I tend to do more electronic - even, dancey stuff) I seldom use more than 1.5 to 3 dBs of limiting. This is after I sent the mix out to external comp/limiters, so it basically just needs a little final volume touch. If you have left some space in the sound it will bring up the background stuff then, helping keep the overall volume loud (and bringing those parts out, of course). If you do squish much more than that it can really flatten out a song, which is not what I want. I want the song to breath a little and radio play be damned. I find my own songs stand up against regular CDs in the changer. Maybe a little down, but not enough to give me the vapors as long as the songs sound good.
Ballads and songs w/o a lot of backing stuff can take more compression/limiting. In fact, that is a good way to hear what your limiter is doing - a simple guitar/vox song or scratch pad can really give you an idea of how a limiter sounds.
hope this ramble helps.
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http://www.bnoir-film.com/ there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
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batsbrew
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Re:How Much Limiting for Rock Music?
2010/05/04 13:56:25
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in other words, it's purely a judgement call.
and every song, is going to 'peak' different than the one before it, or the one after, so you have to find the 'sweet spot' on every song as a seperate approach.
getting good at 'making the call', is what takes so very long.................
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bitflipper
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Re:How Much Limiting for Rock Music?
2010/05/04 14:05:25
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There is no standard, which is why radio broadcasters have to compress music to achieve consistency and not overmodulate their carriers. Even then, there is no consistency from one station to the next, especially in television.
All you can do is pick some records that you'd like to emulate, loudness-wise, shoot for comparable average RMS values and err on the conservative side.
My own genre is classic rock, so I look to those types of recordings for guidance. Around -12db (give or take) average RMS seems to be the sweet spot for that genre. If I'm after a wider, spacious sound I'll shoot for around -14db. If I'm intentionally going for a more modern, aggressive sound I'll adjust for between -8db and -10db.
These numbers are average RMS, with the quiet parts (e.g. intros and fadeouts) left out of the calculation. I use Adobe Audition when analyzing reference material. (If you use AA, be sure to include the amplitude histogram in your analysis, because how much the RMS value varies is as important as the overall average.)
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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ohhey
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Re:How Much Limiting for Rock Music?
2010/05/04 14:17:30
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MarlboroMan23
I'm in the process of redoing some standard rock songs with the PSP Xenon Limiter that I picked up on the recent $99 sale. I was curious how people are using their limiters as far as "home mastering" goes. Do you use them just as a safety to catch any stray overs or do you use them to get louder cds? How much limiting is acceptable and what is too much to your ears on your songs?
It's a difficult balance for me. I know that limiting for the sake of a louder cd degrades audio quality but at the same time I don't want my cd to sound "quiet" compared to others.
This is in the context of general rock format music; electric guitar and bass, vocals, drums.
I've been wondering that myself. Lately I've been ripping waves off old and newer CD to compare and see what would be a happy medium between Fleetwood Mac - Rumors and Limp Bizkit. I have also compared old original Van Halen CDs and the latest "remastered" ones that are for sale now. There is a huge difference and the new ones just suck all the coolness out of the music. The first thing I think is important is to resist the notion that clipping is somehow "OK" now. I don't think clipping is ever OK and is a direct violation of the Red Book Audio CD specification. In my mind any CD with clipping is a miss- print and a defective product. So your compression should raise levels without going over zero. If you work with a compressor on the main bus while mixing and get it right, there really shouldn't be a need for limiting in mastering. In rare cases where just a few peaks get though I've either gone back and fixed the part in the tracks that were causing the peaks and exported again or reduced just those peaks in SoundForge and did a normalize to bring everything else up. However, if it's more then 2db of gain the mix balance might go to hell so it's really best to remix if it's more then 2db. Also, find a CD you love the sound of that is not drivin to clipping and examine the wave and listen. Try to determine what they did to get that level.
post edited by ohhey - 2010/05/04 14:18:52
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skullsession
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Re:How Much Limiting for Rock Music?
2010/05/04 15:08:30
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It's a shame, but it's the times we're in for sure. It's usually overdone. I DO like the sound of compression and limiting on a mix...but much less than what is "in style" these days.
I tend to shoot for about -9db RMS for my paying clients. I suspect that most of them would prefer it even hotter...but most don't seem to mind. Or at least they don't say anything. We actually have discussions about this sort of thing throughout the recording process so they're ready for it when I hand it over.
The ones that do want it louder...well....I give'em what they want. And I also tell them they're crazy.
Personally, I find that when a mix starts to sound good to me, it ALSO happens to be in the neighborhood of -12db more often than not. Right about there is when the mix starts to get really full, but enough of the original transient is getting through so that it just ROCKS BALLS when you crank it.
Much more than that...and it's "louder"....but certainly not BETTER in my opinion.
But I don't get there with limiting. I get there with multiple stages of compression...and then I use a brickwall limiter at the end of the chain to just shave off the overs.
HOOK: Skullsessions.com / Darwins God Album "Without a doubt I would have far greater listening and aural skills than most of the forum members here. Not all but many I am sure....I have done more listening than most people." - Jeff Evans on how awesome Jeff Evans is.
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batsbrew
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Re:How Much Limiting for Rock Music?
2010/05/04 17:39:20
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those folks with the -9db rms recordings...
those are the ones i never ever make it all the way thru.
so, there's that.
i've been running my own at about -13 or -12db rms.....
and even THAT seems to ruin what i had going on with the raw mix.
i'll tell you, i believe folks are teaching themselves how to NOT recognize good and bad sound.
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skullsession
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Re:How Much Limiting for Rock Music?
2010/05/05 07:58:58
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That's funny. Mastering levels have never, ever been my deciding factor when it came to listening to something or not. I either like a song, or I don't.
Do you remember when EVERYONE was ****ing about the new Metallica album's mastering level.....and I mean, before it even hit the shelves? Which meant that people were analyzing a damn MP3 that they had downloaded before release. That's just ignorant.
I didn't even notice. I was just glad it sounded like Metallica once again. Of course, I don't run stuff through my system to check RMS so I have something to cry about like some folks apparently do. It's pretty simple in my world....if I like a song, I'll either turn it up - or turn it down.....and listen.
I've said it before....to me, if the song is there, the production doesn't matter to me that much. There's a side of me that's still really good at letting go of the technical end of a recording so that I can just listen to the song. I still find myself getting critical of a mix or whatever occasionally...but I find myself forgetting about the song itself when I do that.
I'm glad that the song still sells more units than production or mastering levels ever will.
In fact, Bat....I listened to your stuff a few months back and liked it a lot. And I didn't even throw it in my system to make sure it wasn't "too loud". AND...I can't even recall if I had to turn it up or down...or if the bass was too loud....or if the guitars were too thin...or if the snare needed a bump at 250hz....
It just rocked.
HOOK: Skullsessions.com / Darwins God Album "Without a doubt I would have far greater listening and aural skills than most of the forum members here. Not all but many I am sure....I have done more listening than most people." - Jeff Evans on how awesome Jeff Evans is.
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batsbrew
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Re:How Much Limiting for Rock Music?
2010/05/05 10:43:36
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well, i guess i'm still in student mode....
and i'm acutely aware of when things sound compressed and unnatural.
i LIKE hearing transients!
to me, it's more like the real world.
but to have those transients, you can't bring the peaks down to far...
and it just so happens i use wavelab, so i can monitor in real time, the RMS and peak values, and then do global analysis to find out the end result....
and when i hear the limiters and compressors working, it just so happens to be right at about -13db.
now i can push it to -9.....
i experiment.
but then when i a/b the -9 to the more conservative -13, yeah, the -13 is not as loud, but to my ears, it sounds more like my actual mix.
i guess it really only matters to folks who are currently into analyzing, like i am.
but, my point about the hard pushed -9db...........
it fatigues my ears.
every time.
and i'm almost always listening to WAV files, not so many mp3's, i guess i can hear the artifacts of mastering better on the wavs, than on the mp3's, which have already seriously messed with the sonics of the original.
what about FLAC?
where are we with that?
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bitflipper
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Re:How Much Limiting for Rock Music?
2010/05/05 10:46:10
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A good example of an otherwise-good record that was damaged in mastering is Green Day's American Idiot. Some of the tunes on there are pop masterpieces. But I have never been able to listen to the entire album at one go, because it hurts my ears, even at moderate volume. Average RMS on the title track: -6db.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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batsbrew
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Re:How Much Limiting for Rock Music?
2010/05/05 10:46:27
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ohhey
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Re:How Much Limiting for Rock Music?
2010/05/05 11:26:40
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bitflipper
A good example of an otherwise-good record that was damaged in mastering is Green Day's American Idiot. Some of the tunes on there are pop masterpieces. But I have never been able to listen to the entire album at one go, because it hurts my ears, even at moderate volume. Average RMS on the title track: -6db.
I noticed on the Van Halen "remasters" they clipped the waves but all of them are at - .1 db. It's like they tried to hide the clipping by reducing the entire thing by .1 db AFTER it was clipped. What a bunch of chicken poop. With those I can get the old CDs off e-bay and do my own remaster starting with the HiFi recording, but with Green Day there is no older CD so there is no possible way to obtain a HiFi copy. That sucks. Hey... wait. Have you tried the LP or Cassette of American Idiot ? I wonder if those are better ?
post edited by ohhey - 2010/05/05 11:32:58
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skullsession
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Re:How Much Limiting for Rock Music?
2010/05/05 12:20:55
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batsbrew
well, i guess i'm still in student mode....
and i'm acutely aware of when things sound compressed and unnatural.
i LIKE hearing transients!
Bat...and others...I wasn't trying to make that sound like I know any better than anyone else. Sorry if it sounded that way...because I think we all basically agree. I'm just saying that as a "fan"...as a "listener"...I find it pretty easy to ignore those things. I can shut off the analytical side of me like a light switch when I'm just chillin'....and enjoy the songs without seeing compressors, LED's, faders, aux sends, and VU meters in the back of my mind. Even if it wasn't mixed or mastered exactly how I would do it. I hope we all can let go often enough to put that stuff down long enough to get back to enjoying the songs....without thinking about signal chains. 
HOOK: Skullsessions.com / Darwins God Album "Without a doubt I would have far greater listening and aural skills than most of the forum members here. Not all but many I am sure....I have done more listening than most people." - Jeff Evans on how awesome Jeff Evans is.
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Philip
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Re:How Much Limiting for Rock Music?
2010/05/05 12:38:06
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Bob Katz covers ultra-compression issues ... but humanity may be getting worse ... for the slop we're told to listen to.
Hiphop-rap may be 'on-the-rise'. While my crony ears eschew its message and ear-damage (to my crony ears) ... there must be something there worth listening to.
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batsbrew
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Re:How Much Limiting for Rock Music?
2010/05/05 13:15:41
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i guess my ultimate point is to say that the older classic recordings, and the modern recordings that are considered audiophile, understand that just because we have a technology available, to squeeze every last bit of headroom out of the equation to maximize volume, we shouldn't do it.
it ruins a good thing.
i have a volume knob on my stereo, and I know how to use it.
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skullsession
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Re:How Much Limiting for Rock Music?
2010/05/05 13:33:54
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I couldn't agree more. And when your're working on a project when you're personally responsible for all creative and executive decisions....it's easy to put your foot down.
But sometimes when we work-for-hire, we sort of get painted into a corner by the guy with the check book who's basing his decisions on precedent works. (Which, unfortunately, are becoming increasingly worse examples.) Those are the moments I hate....and I just have to make the best of the situation by trying to limit the damage. Sometimes I have to suck it up and remember that it's not my call....I can only advise.
HOOK: Skullsessions.com / Darwins God Album "Without a doubt I would have far greater listening and aural skills than most of the forum members here. Not all but many I am sure....I have done more listening than most people." - Jeff Evans on how awesome Jeff Evans is.
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ohhey
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Re:How Much Limiting for Rock Music?
2010/05/05 13:46:33
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skullsession
I couldn't agree more. And when your're working on a project when you're personally responsible for all creative and executive decisions....it's easy to put your foot down.
But sometimes when we work-for-hire, we sort of get painted into a corner by the guy with the check book who's basing his decisions on precedent works. (Which, unfortunately, are becoming increasingly worse examples.) Those are the moments I hate....and I just have to make the best of the situation by trying to limit the damage. Sometimes I have to suck it up and remember that it's not my call....I can only advise.
In the old days when the record company had all the power to control the media production there was a select group of folks who make the decisions and things were done by the book. Today anyone can do mastering with a computer and have their own studio to do the mix. Back in those days I used to hate that musicians had no power to control their own product but as the years go by I have changed my mind. I owe those record company folks an apology when it comes to quality control. They really were saving us from ourselves.
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skullsession
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Re:How Much Limiting for Rock Music?
2010/05/05 13:57:10
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Hmmm...I'd have to disagree to a point.
It was the marketing and A&R guys from the labels who started pushing the volume.
Louder gets your attention....so louder MUST be better. And like I said...the guy with the check book wins.
Have you ever heard the saying..."Hey man...I'm just holding the dog's tail - YOU'RE the one fuc*%ng it in the a$$."? Most days, no one listens to the dude who's only holding the tail.
HOOK: Skullsessions.com / Darwins God Album "Without a doubt I would have far greater listening and aural skills than most of the forum members here. Not all but many I am sure....I have done more listening than most people." - Jeff Evans on how awesome Jeff Evans is.
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ohhey
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Re:How Much Limiting for Rock Music?
2010/05/05 14:03:28
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skullsession
I couldn't agree more. And when your're working on a project when you're personally responsible for all creative and executive decisions....it's easy to put your foot down.
But sometimes when we work-for-hire, we sort of get painted into a corner by the guy with the check book who's basing his decisions on precedent works. (Which, unfortunately, are becoming increasingly worse examples.) Those are the moments I hate....and I just have to make the best of the situation by trying to limit the damage. Sometimes I have to suck it up and remember that it's not my call....I can only advise.
I guess what I meant by "old days" was before the loudness wars started.
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Dave King
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Re:How Much Limiting for Rock Music?
2010/05/05 14:47:03
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A good example of an otherwise-good record that was damaged in mastering is Green Day's American Idiot. Some of the tunes on there are pop masterpieces. But I have never been able to listen to the entire album at one go, because it hurts my ears +1 What a shame.
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