A MIDI question

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NoKey
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2010/05/04 21:05:49 (permalink)

A MIDI question

Dear forum people,

I OPEN a karaoke MIDI file from elsewhere as the start of a project. I can play it OK, no problems.

Now when I go to one of the MIDI tracks, and I click properties, the patch number is empty.

I go to other of such MIDI tracks, and same thing.

I have specified all I can relating to this being about General MIDI.

So how can I know what the patch number of each MIDI track is, other than I can see it in the display of my Synth.

Why does not Sonar show me the MIDI patch number of a MIDI track when I click on that track's properties?

Now if I do type in a patch number in the Track properties, then it does continue to show it, and indeed it plays the patch onto the synth.

Thanks for any replies.
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    Guitarhacker
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    Re:A MIDI question 2010/05/05 09:04:56 (permalink)
    I'm not sure.... but IF I was to do what you're doing.... I would, first of all,  replace the existing sounds with new better sounds. So my move would be to insert new synths and repatch all the sounds, not really worrying about the patch and banks used previously.

    My guess as to why the numbers don't show...... (wild guess)... the midi was created in a different sequencer, with a patch that doesn't have a GM patch that matches what the cake GM synth is using.... like I said ...... just a guess.  


    And yeah, I have seen this on a midi song that someone else posted some time back. It played OK and I was able to change the synths to better sounding synths and patches.

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    Beagle
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    Re:A MIDI question 2010/05/05 09:12:28 (permalink)
    when you open a MIDI file with embedded patches, I'm not sure why sonar doesn't display them in the track properties - I've wondered that myself and thought that it was bad.  however, you can find them if you open the EVENT list for each track and look for the patch change data.

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    Jeff Evans
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    Re:A MIDI question 2010/05/05 12:44:05 (permalink)
    NoKey I have been working with midi files (some professional, others free etc) a lot lately and would like to offer some tips:

    Let us assume we have installed TTS 1 as the GM synth and this is a good place to start.

    Patch change information is often included and you need to expand the track height of a track in order to see it. Under the Midi Channel box is the Bank Box and under that is the Patch change box. In there a drop down menu appears and it is often ticked on the appropriate instrument sound. Set this to none when you start re assigning midi file tracks to other instruments either external hardware or virtual. The patch change will cause a patch change in the receiving instrument. (unless you want it of course)

    In the event list you can see all the other information (in red) embedded in a midi track before the notes start. Here is often volume, pan, patch info, reverb etc. Click on a clip and then open the event list. Sometimes the info in red at the top does not appear and you need to scroll down and back up again. (Little bug maybe) Midi tracks need to be pulled right back to measure 1 as well in order to see everything in the event list.

    After the TTS 1 gets this info during the first play, I usually erase all the commands in red. The TTS 1 will stay set that way after that. Those commands can upset external devices and virtual instruments like Session Drummer 3 for example. It freezes and drops out the audio. All this info needs to be cleared when working on this material reassigning to new sounds etc..

    Often tracks and clips are named but sometimes they are not. Just double click on the little TTS 1 icon on the track to bring up the TTS 1 mixer. The instruments will always be shown there. Tracks and Clips can easily be renamed with this info.

    Many of the virtual synths in Sonar can easily replace the GM sounds coming from TTS 1, many of the TTS 1 patches are very acceptable. I have been re assigning midi tracks to external devices such as 3 Kurzweils,  2 EMU samplers and a Yamaha A3000 sampler. These sound killer and can really enhance a midi file track.

    Session Drummer 3 is great too. It just requires a bit of work on the mixer page to get it right. Send it to a Drum Buss and put a multiband compressor over it for some really punchy drum sounds.





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    NoKey
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    Re:A MIDI question 2010/05/06 01:10:46 (permalink)
    Thank you good people for your replies.
        
    Guitar Hacker: I do have various hardware and software synths.
    I mostly use Proteus VX and I have hand-built my own GM bank, which is in itself upwards capable, due to the features provided by that software.

    Beagle: What you say is pretty much what I got to think, and I even did before asking, use the Event-List to inspect each track, but the patch numbers don't show that way, either. All tracks had either Note events, other tracks had controller changes such as volume, Modulation wheel, panning, but no, not patch numbers.

    Jeff Evans: I tried what you say by inspecting the MIDI channel box. It shows the patch number as NONE, exactly the same  as opening the Track Properties dialogue. I don't have the TTS, but I believe that would not make me a difference here..I am basically a real-time player using Yamaha Styles, so I am not into high-quality patches or sounds, because I change patches with hardware buttons on the fly, and VST's may hic-up when I change voices.. I do need, therefore, either a full set of GM or XG of the instant response type, and so far Proteus VX has that kind of response, as well as hardware synths. Of course if I record something in Sonar, I can go then and do specific channel/voice assignments. I can trigger also the synths of some external arranger keyboards I still have. But for convenience, I am mainly using software sounds. I use the Native Instruments B4 for organ, and the Pianoteq for Piano, and have even managed to hack a Yamaha software player to work as a VST and is XG compatible, and changes patches instantly, and are of fairly good quality.For drums,  I have tried Native Instruments Battery demos, and also Addictive Drums. I can trigger many sounds, external or external, in rather complex ways using MIDI-Yoke and MIDI-Ox. I get fairly good drum sounds from some of the synhts I have. Later, when I see things better, I do plan to improve on sound qualities, though.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    ANYHOW, I believe that I have now solved this issue, or answered my own question, which I share as follows:

    1. Although I am rather familiar with MIDI and its specs, and have used MIDI files on and off, (no expert, though, but do get into what I need to on an as-need basis), but I often miss the boat, as in this case.
        
    2. So, it was important for me to realize that Sonar is quite a bit independent, in many ways, from a MIDI-file per se. Sonar is a sequencer and it actually only shows TRACKS, whereas a MIDI file, depending on its type has other structures of what they call "data chunks"..So, even if Sonar uses info from data chunks, it may or not display it because it is basically track-oriented. It is a sequencer, of course!
        
    3. So why don't patch numbers show? Simply because it handles Type-0 MIDI files different from Type-1 MIDI files. I does its best at that, although possibly that 'best' may at times not look good enough for us in some things. Just as Beagle says, "doesn't look good that it does not show the Patch Numbers".

    4. So I decided to save, from Sonar, the file as Type-0, with a different name....

    5. Then I closed the project, and opened the new file (type-0), and voila, the tracks are now only 16, from being originally more than 30, and NOW, each track DOES SHOW its Patch Number, and for each such track, in the Event-List, yes, the first things one sees are the patch number, and some volume value.
        
    6. So, in summary, and subject to there maybe being other things I may be missing, it does seem to me that only for Type-0 MIDI files can one expect to see the Patch number on each track, but not for some Type-1 MIDI files. There may be some "depends".

    7. MIDI-Type 1 can have info on patches on a common basis, outside of a Track chunk, seems to me, and in those cases, Sonar will not read the info as belonging to the tracks that follow. When it PLAYS the file, of course, it plays it as a MIDI file, just as any other MIDI player, it checks the Header-data-Chunk. But I believe that when one changes the instrument in Sonar at the track level, that has priority....And I will mention that at this point, this is a Sonar Project, NOT NECESSARILY a "MIDI-file of one type or the other, UNTILL one SAVES it and choses what MIDI type to save it-as.

    That's why I say it was important for me to distinguish that Sonar project is not necessarily a MIDI-file, and I need to stay away from thinking that it is. It's related-to, but one is not the other.

    I will mention that when I saved the project as Type-0, though, the words or lyrics of that karaoke MIDI file were lost. I don't beleive Type-0 can have lyrics, but I may be wrong.

    And also, that from now on, I will refrain from deleting tracks from foreign files that seem to be empty, because when the file is Type-1 (probably the most common), some people put controller changes that Sonar does show as tracsk, but seem to be totally empty.

    Anyway, there are many "tricks" to the MIDI world, and it is indeed complex.

    I don't claim, either to mean that this observatins cover all other possibilities, though. But I do hope that maybe this helps others in seeing some other aspect of the bigger picture. And, of course I welcome corrections, or clarifications, for although I wrote a lot, it doesn't mean there isn't more to this.

    Thanks again everyone.
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