windsurfer25x
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Recording a Jazz group for the first time Input requested!
Hi all,
This weekend I'm recording a jazz group consisting of a stand up bass, guitar, drums, reeds and female vocalist....
This will be a first for me... I'm excited but nervous as well, any tips or pointers?
I met with the guy who's house the recording is taking place... the bass has some pickups in it, the quality of the instrument isn't superb so he said it would be better to mic the amp, the reed player also has special mics for his instruments and will also be amped..
I was thinking an SM57 and my MXL ribbon on the amp, or would a condenser be better? I've got a AT 4047, TLM 102 and MXL V88, as well as to AT4021's, oh and an SM7b, and a UA Solo 110
Any suggestions would be helpful especially regarding miking the drum kit and less so the amps..
Thanks,
Aaron
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skullsession
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Re:Recording a Jazz group for the first time Input requested!
2010/06/23 11:49:01
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What EXACTLY do you mean by "reeds"?
Sax only? Sax and occasional Clarinet?
If it were me, I'd go very minimal on the kit. A mono overhead and a bass drum mic would do the trick just fine for me.
My fear with mics only on the "reed" amp, I'd lose some of the magic that comes from the air passing through the instrument and the sound of the valves closing/opening, etc. I'd probably want to mic the amp as usual, but also use some sort of condensor near the player, pointed at the horn(s) to try to catch the ambience of the whole thing.
I have the same concern with the bass....a lot of mojo could be coming from the fretboard. And I'd rather delete it if I don't need it - rather than wish I had it after the fact.
I would assume you plan to go live with the entire group....including vocals?
Sounds like fun....
HOOK: Skullsessions.com / Darwins God Album "Without a doubt I would have far greater listening and aural skills than most of the forum members here. Not all but many I am sure....I have done more listening than most people." - Jeff Evans on how awesome Jeff Evans is.
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alexoosthoek
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Re:Recording a Jazz group for the first time Input requested!
2010/06/23 12:54:03
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If you have some condensers left, I would tape two of them together x/y and put them somewhere in a corner of the room, facing the band(one panned left, the other to the right)
If you can't use the tracks, at least you will know how the band sounds.
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ohhey
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Re:Recording a Jazz group for the first time Input requested!
2010/06/23 13:21:31
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alexoosthoek
If you have some condensers left, I would tape two of them together x/y and put them somewhere in a corner of the room, facing the band(one panned left, the other to the right)
If you can't use the tracks, at least you will know how the band sounds.
The jazz recordings I admire always seem to have some air to them. It's not like rock and roll where you are trying to get everything forced to the forground, it's OK for it to sound live. I'd just use two mic and do live to 2 track till you get it right. Multi-tracking Jazz never seems to capture the "performance" you just end up with a lot of sounds that don't blend because there is no room air between them. Air is a great sound mixer.
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John
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Re:Recording a Jazz group for the first time Input requested!
2010/06/23 13:41:38
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Blue Note used a stereo setup. 2 mics and a 2 track recorder for most of their recordings. If you can do better then they did with close micing then do that but its very hard to beat them in total balance and Hi Fi quality.
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alexoosthoek
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Re:Recording a Jazz group for the first time Input requested!
2010/06/23 15:17:26
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ohhey
alexoosthoek
If you have some condensers left, I would tape two of them together x/y and put them somewhere in a corner of the room, facing the band(one panned left, the other to the right)
If you can't use the tracks, at least you will know how the band sounds.
The jazz recordings I admire always seem to have some air to them. It's not like rock and roll where you are trying to get everything forced to the forground, it's OK for it to sound live. I'd just use two mic and do live to 2 track till you get it right. Multi-tracking Jazz never seems to capture the "performance" you just end up with a lot of sounds that don't blend because there is no room air between them. Air is a great sound mixer.
I've had some very nice results using two cheap condensers x/y.
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windsurfer25x
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Re:Recording a Jazz group for the first time Input requested!
2010/06/24 12:35:01
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The reeds player, will be playing different woodwinds I was told. Mostly clarinet, sometimes saxophone and maybe flute.
Interesting a lot of people saying less mics = better...
But, the thing is the room in the guys basement is kind of small, it is constructed well but there are amps all over the room facing inward, and if you put a drum kit in there it's very cramped.. So in light of the room (sorry I don't have dimensions) do your recommendations hold?
Also, I won't be doing the mixing... I am just capturing and then the files are being sent to a pro studio in Toronto.
Any more recommendations?
I've only got 4 hours to do capture as many songs as possible, the group will be rehearsing friday and saturday then I'm there 6pm till 10pm...
Too me just a stereo x/y pair doesn't seem like it would suffice,
I was thinking of recording two players at a time (as I only have two sets of headphones)
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ohhey
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Re:Recording a Jazz group for the first time Input requested!
2010/06/24 13:10:25
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windsurfer25x
The reeds player, will be playing different woodwinds I was told. Mostly clarinet, sometimes saxophone and maybe flute.
Interesting a lot of people saying less mics = better...
But, the thing is the room in the guys basement is kind of small, it is constructed well but there are amps all over the room facing inward, and if you put a drum kit in there it's very cramped.. So in light of the room (sorry I don't have dimensions) do your recommendations hold?
Also, I won't be doing the mixing... I am just capturing and then the files are being sent to a pro studio in Toronto.
Any more recommendations?
I've only got 4 hours to do capture as many songs as possible, the group will be rehearsing friday and saturday then I'm there 6pm till 10pm...
Too me just a stereo x/y pair doesn't seem like it would suffice,
I was thinking of recording two players at a time (as I only have two sets of headphones)
Good luck with that. My advice still stands. Find a spot in the room where you think it sounds good and put the mics where your ears were. I don't think "tracking" Jazz is going to work.
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skullsession
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Re:Recording a Jazz group for the first time Input requested!
2010/06/24 13:16:55
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I don't know your group....but a small jazz quartet like that will probably cry mutiny on trying to record as individuals. And with good cause. There's just too much on-the-fly interaction between the players dynamically for that to work well. And if you're not the guy mixing it, then I would say that it's not possible to use too many mics. In this case, I'd capture a nice X/Y of the entire group. I'd also go OH with drums and one in front of kick. Maybe even one on snare - though it will probably not get usd in the mix. I'd DI and close mic the bass. I'd close mic the guitar amp. And I'd put the woodwinds in front of a mic as well. Capture it all dry...no compression, no effects... Explain to the band and the mixing engineer what exactly you did, and let the mixing engineer use what he wants to use in the mix. I mean...a single X/Y being sent to a pro-studio sort of ties their hands a bit....especially if those mics are budget level quality. I'm sure they'd appreciate the options, even if all the tracks aren't stellar.
post edited by skullsession - 2010/06/24 13:28:20
HOOK: Skullsessions.com / Darwins God Album "Without a doubt I would have far greater listening and aural skills than most of the forum members here. Not all but many I am sure....I have done more listening than most people." - Jeff Evans on how awesome Jeff Evans is.
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tarsier
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Re:Recording a Jazz group for the first time Input requested!
2010/06/24 15:00:14
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the group will be rehearsing friday and saturday then I'm there 6pm till 10pm... Attend the rehearsals. Listen in lots of different spots. Bring a simple 2 track recorder and record the rehearsals from lots of different spots. Listen back to the recordings, and whatever you think is missing from the recording, that's where you start spot mic'ing. What are their expectations? If you're sending the tracks off to be mixed, then just mic up everything and let the mixer sort it out. The reed player with his own mics scares me. I've encountered some players like that... it never ends well. A cramped basement recording with everyone playing at once will sound like it was recorded in a cramped basement. Good luck, sounds like a big challenge.
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alexoosthoek
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Re:Recording a Jazz group for the first time Input requested!
2010/06/24 15:57:19
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windsurfer25x
The reeds player, will be playing different woodwinds I was told. Mostly clarinet, sometimes saxophone and maybe flute.
Interesting a lot of people saying less mics = better...
But, the thing is the room in the guys basement is kind of small, it is constructed well but there are amps all over the room facing inward, and if you put a drum kit in there it's very cramped.. So in light of the room (sorry I don't have dimensions) do your recommendations hold?
Also, I won't be doing the mixing... I am just capturing and then the files are being sent to a pro studio in Toronto.
Any more recommendations?
I've only got 4 hours to do capture as many songs as possible, the group will be rehearsing friday and saturday then I'm there 6pm till 10pm...
Too me just a stereo x/y pair doesn't seem like it would suffice,
I was thinking of recording two players at a time (as I only have two sets of headphones)
I would go for "live", doing two players at the time will take more than 4 hours I think. And I would do a mix too 
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Recording a Jazz group for the first time Input requested!
2010/06/24 18:13:10
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Hi windsurfer25x here are a few ideas. Firstly with Jazz overdubs are not an option. It is not how the music is played. It is very much a live thing including vocals. You will get much more material down in the given time as well. In a smaller not so great room the better approach is to multitrack close miked signals. That way you will remove a lot of the room and allow the mix person the option of getting a better balance and add nicer reverbs too. That is how I would do it. Stereo recordings of an entire band are only good if the room is really nice, the instruments are of the highest quality and the band can all play in a perfect balance. Something only very experienced musicians can do. How many channels can you record in one pass? This is important. Can you minimise internal reflections? Drums: Simple overhead condenser, (one or two) kick and snare. The overhead should be out in the front of the kit more pointing in towards the drums. Still close in though. This mike can reject a lot of the other sound and still get the drums very well if placed well. It is always good the have kick and snare up close in case the music gets rocky or groove based etc. If possible get kick mike inside the bass drum through a hole. Small amount of damping inside but be careful here. Drummer should tune the drums to sound nice. Keep an eye on kick and snare sounds. Drummer needs to play quieter in a small room. Bass: I would leave him totally acoustic. Record with a nice condenser in front of the bass f hole on the bass side. If the DI signal is present, record it. Any DI signals will be welcome later. If he needs an amp, let him use it but keep the volume low. (think sound reinforcement not amplification here) Don't bother recording the amp direct out signal or mike it. Keep the mike on the bass and the DI direct from the pickup. Guitar: Guitar will go into an amp. Keep volume low. Guitarist should pull a nice clear jazz tone. A dynamic close up on the guitar amp will do a fine job. Record the guitar DI (direct from the instrument) if you can. Could be handy later. Remember collect all DI signals if you can. Horns. The best condensers on the instuments up close. For sax looking into the bell. (and partially into the keys) You will get very little spill on the sax mike because it is loud. Clarinet sound tends to come out of the holes rather than the end so mike it looking at the instrument. Not too close. It will also record well. Flute up high on a separate mike up near sound hole. Flute is also quite loud there and there will be low spill there. Vocals: A nice condenser with a pop filter up as close as reasonable. The vocal will be acoustic in the room and the band should hear enough of the vocals so they know where they are. They are often only singing at the start and end of the tunes anyway. I have used small PA's in this situation but if the room is small I would avoid it of possible because it will get picked up. On levels I would be thinking K Sytem -20 db FS for rms levels of instruments in the louder parts of the music. Get them to play a bit before hitting record so you can set levels well. Put the track meters into rms/peak mode and study them while they are practicing. I would not process anything on the way into to your DAW. By thinking K -20 you have got a good 20 db of headroom above. Do it in 24 bit as well. It will sound clean and there should be no distortion anywhere. Dont waste too much time on playback during the tracking session. You will need a mixer to playback and monitors etc. Sounds like there may not be much room. Focus on how they are playing once you get recording. Listen out for musical problems and mistakes and grooves etc. Listen carefully to the vocals during the heads.
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2010/06/24 18:23:09
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windsurfer25x
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Re:Recording a Jazz group for the first time Input requested!
2010/06/24 18:24:33
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RabbitSeason
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Re:Recording a Jazz group for the first time Input requested!
2010/06/25 14:34:50
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Everyone's offered some excellent technical tips. I can't add to that.
However, I would throw in this (hopefully funny) advice, based on my own jazz group experiences.
Guitarist: If he pulls out a stomp box, slap him upside the head. There may be complaints of "I'm not loud enough!". Tell him not to worry, that'll be fixed in the mix.
Bassist: May cop attitude, or may actually be the coolest member in the outfit. Chances are he slept with the female signer, then never her called again.
Drummer: Watch for drool. Good luck on getting him to play quietly. "I'm not using brushes!"
Reed: Flute? Really? I realize it's a matter of taste, but I've never enjoyed flutes in jazz. At least it's not a vuvuzela. Odds are very good that the reed player will vote for a smoke break, and I don't mean cigarettes.
Vocalist: Watch for diva. There's a reason why this joke is funny: How can you tell there's a female singer on your doorstep? She couldn't find the key, then came in late.
Seriously, I'm sure things will be fine. I would take Jeff's advice, and add in the x/y room mike. I've heard some fantastic (and completely lucky) room mike recordings.
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Middleman
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Re:Recording a Jazz group for the first time Input requested!
2010/06/25 16:09:26
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Your chances of capturing a good recording will go up dramatically if you don't record in the basement. Find a good room with some wooden floors. If the basement is treated well, it could work.
Jeff's advice above is spot on. Two mics on the drums max and not close. One in front snare high, One overhead maybe behind the drummers head the same distance away from the snare. Use a string taped on the snare head and locate your mics equal distance 5-7 feet out from the snare. The 57 and a ribbon mic on the amp for some variety, I agree with this and keeping the guitar amp low.
Vocalist needs a barrier from the instruments but could be in the same room. Wish I was there to help. Good Luck.
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windsurfer25x
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Re:Recording a Jazz group for the first time Input requested!
2010/06/25 20:27:38
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What sample rate should I record at? 44.1 KHz? 96 KHz? etc.?
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Middleman
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Re:Recording a Jazz group for the first time Input requested!
2010/06/25 20:32:10
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How good are your converters?
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windsurfer25x
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Re:Recording a Jazz group for the first time Input requested!
2010/06/25 20:34:41
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Well for this I will be using my Tascam US 2000
I have a Cakewalk's V-Studio 100 which I use most of the time, but I will need 16 inputs on the Tascam
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Middleman
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Re:Recording a Jazz group for the first time Input requested!
2010/06/25 20:52:47
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I would recommend recording at 88.2k/24 bits if the Tascam has that rate. Really hard to say and only you can answer the question. Try some 96/24 and then dither it down to 44.1/16. If you can't hear any difference then I would stay at 44.1/24 for tracking. If you get better results by tracking at 96 or 88.1 then downsizing to 44.1/16, then use those. All soundcards are not equal and just because you can track that high, doesn't mean it adds any value later. Only your ears matter here.
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skullsession
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Re:Recording a Jazz group for the first time Input requested!
2010/06/26 21:51:16
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Middleman
I would recommend recording at 88.2k/24 bits if the Tascam has that rate.
Just curious as to why you'd "recommend" that particular sampling rate?
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Middleman
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Re:Recording a Jazz group for the first time Input requested!
2010/06/26 22:53:10
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Nothing scientific, the dither down results will most likely be the same but many plug ins don't work well at 96. So basically, you push the upper end fidelity wise but its not putting you in the fail zone plugin compatibility-wise when you mix.
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tarsier
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Re:Recording a Jazz group for the first time Input requested!
2010/06/27 12:18:06
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So how did it go? (assuming the recording was Sat. 6-10PM...)
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windsurfer25x
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Re:Recording a Jazz group for the first time Input requested!
2010/06/27 17:24:21
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Hey guys,
It went well, kind of...
When I got there, the room was super crowded.. and I found out that there are going to be backup vocals too which I wasn't told about and found out when I got there...
So I had 4 mics on the drums, my SM7b on the kick, and an Sm57 on the snare, and my two AT4021's as overheads... the drummer did a good job of playing quietly he was using brushes too. I had the MXL R144 (ribbon) on the guitar players amp, and the Neumann TLM 102 for the female vox, the AT4047 on the clarinet's amp... (which sounded really really good, the player was great too, I've never heard a clarinet played so well!) The upright bass was playing into an amp, which got miked with one of their '57's... not ideal but oh well
I only was able to use 9 inputs, 8 mic pre's in the Tascam US-2000 + 1 in the UA Solo 110... so one of the backup vocalists didn't get a mic because I didn't have enough inputs.
I have a Langevin DVC on order, but I think it was on back order and it's been about 3 weeks now... that would have been really nice to have.
In retrospect, I would've liked to have had the Langevin DVC and another 2 more channels (Don't know what though) as I would have liked to have a condenser on the upright bass itself, and 2 mics on the guitar amp as well, and probably something else... oh well live and learn, I'd like to get 2 more condensers like a pair of AT4050's or AKG C214's or 414 maybe, anyways I need to make some more money before I can afford to expand the channels and mikes...
It was a pleasure to listen to! And it really inspired me to learn some "jazz techniques" on the guitar, I already learned 4 new chords! I'd like to learn some more and some scales etc.
but back to the recording, about half way through I realized I wasn't happy with the placement of the overheads.. I wasn't sure what to do, I thought moving them partway through might discredit me so I didn't say anything. I think they should have been closer, they were probably between 1' - 1' and a half away from the kit...
I convinced them not to use monitoring, because I took all the signals into my Tascam US-2000 and thinking back I could have used hardware monitoring, but either way I didn't want to run into feedback problems and muddy up the recording with even more bleed. So the vocalist had a set of headphones everyone else just heard each other naturally.
Overall though the room was not ideal, with everyone in position it was "grid-lock" and there was a lot of bleed..
I recorded in 88.2, 24 bit... and I have a question about that, when I export the individual wave files it defaults to 32bit, is that because the render is set to 32bit? I don't want to dither or do anything to them, so should I set render at 24 bit? as they were recorded at 24 bit? If I export at 24 bit, will I get distortion if there is no dither and the render is at 32 bit?
I feel kind of silly asking these questions but I wasn't sure,
Anyways, the files are going to go to the guitarists step son who works in a ProTools studio in Toronto,
I got paid, we listened to some of the capture afterwards through a crappy mono monitor and they seemed happy with it so that's what counts I guess right?
I'm getting the wave files to the guitarist this week burnt on dvds,
And I'm going to see what I can do with the tracks myself! (excited to try)
This was my first time recording a full live band like this too,
most of the multi-tracking stuff I've done has been overdubbing! (well pretty much all of it I think)
Would I do it again? YES!
It was fun...
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Recording a Jazz group for the first time Input requested!
2010/06/27 18:14:29
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That seems like you made some great choices.
You certainly got some great advice.
You seem to have made very good use of it.
Nicely done!
best,
mike
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Middleman
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Re:Recording a Jazz group for the first time Input requested!
2010/06/27 20:04:28
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I'll bet your tired as well. I know when I do an all day live recording with all the mic adjustments, line checking and running back and forth from the room to the computer, it's a work out.
Glad it all went well. As you outline, don't dither anything and keep them at 24 bit. If you are not having plug in problems at 88.2k, I would mix it at that level and export it at that level to 2 track for mastering. You can dither down to 44.1/16 at the end of the mastering process. Keep those bits until the very end.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Recording a Jazz group for the first time Input requested!
2010/06/27 20:07:08
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Yes, make sure you send the Pro Tools guys the 24 bit files rather than 32 bit.
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alexoosthoek
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Re:Recording a Jazz group for the first time Input requested!
2010/06/28 14:37:25
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windsurfer25x
Hey guys,
It went well, kind of...
When I got there, the room was super crowded.. and I found out that there are going to be backup vocals too which I wasn't told about and found out when I got there...
So I had 4 mics on the drums, my SM7b on the kick, and an Sm57 on the snare, and my two AT4021's as overheads... the drummer did a good job of playing quietly he was using brushes too. I had the MXL R144 (ribbon) on the guitar players amp, and the Neumann TLM 102 for the female vox, the AT4047 on the clarinet's amp... (which sounded really really good, the player was great too, I've never heard a clarinet played so well!) The upright bass was playing into an amp, which got miked with one of their '57's... not ideal but oh well
I only was able to use 9 inputs, 8 mic pre's in the Tascam US-2000 + 1 in the UA Solo 110... so one of the backup vocalists didn't get a mic because I didn't have enough inputs.
I have a Langevin DVC on order, but I think it was on back order and it's been about 3 weeks now... that would have been really nice to have.
In retrospect, I would've liked to have had the Langevin DVC and another 2 more channels (Don't know what though) as I would have liked to have a condenser on the upright bass itself, and 2 mics on the guitar amp as well, and probably something else... oh well live and learn, I'd like to get 2 more condensers like a pair of AT4050's or AKG C214's or 414 maybe, anyways I need to make some more money before I can afford to expand the channels and mikes...
It was a pleasure to listen to! And it really inspired me to learn some "jazz techniques" on the guitar, I already learned 4 new chords! I'd like to learn some more and some scales etc.
but back to the recording, about half way through I realized I wasn't happy with the placement of the overheads.. I wasn't sure what to do, I thought moving them partway through might discredit me so I didn't say anything. I think they should have been closer, they were probably between 1' - 1' and a half away from the kit...
I convinced them not to use monitoring, because I took all the signals into my Tascam US-2000 and thinking back I could have used hardware monitoring, but either way I didn't want to run into feedback problems and muddy up the recording with even more bleed. So the vocalist had a set of headphones everyone else just heard each other naturally.
Overall though the room was not ideal, with everyone in position it was "grid-lock" and there was a lot of bleed..
I recorded in 88.2, 24 bit... and I have a question about that, when I export the individual wave files it defaults to 32bit, is that because the render is set to 32bit? I don't want to dither or do anything to them, so should I set render at 24 bit? as they were recorded at 24 bit? If I export at 24 bit, will I get distortion if there is no dither and the render is at 32 bit?
I feel kind of silly asking these questions but I wasn't sure,
Anyways, the files are going to go to the guitarists step son who works in a ProTools studio in Toronto,
I got paid, we listened to some of the capture afterwards through a crappy mono monitor and they seemed happy with it so that's what counts I guess right?
I'm getting the wave files to the guitarist this week burnt on dvds,
And I'm going to see what I can do with the tracks myself! (excited to try)
This was my first time recording a full live band like this too,
most of the multi-tracking stuff I've done has been overdubbing! (well pretty much all of it I think)
Would I do it again? YES!
It was fun...
If they are happy with it and you had fun, there's nothing more to ask for 
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