Beagle
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Using a compressor on a Home Theater setup
Jeff Evans mentioned this in another thread and I wanted to open this for discussion but didn't want to hijack that thread on a different subject. I have had a compressor on my system for a while but am not getting the results I want and wondered if anyone else has done this with success? For Jeff: Jeff Evans
But connecting a decent compressor between your TV receiving device and your Hi Fi amp is the way to go. It goes a long way to improving the TV experience. Part and I think a lot of the stress of TV is the fairly serious level variance there is, not only between networks but between commercials and normal program material. The compressor goes a long way to sorting that all out. You just have to be able to give up one of your compressors to do it. 
Jeff - I have a compressor connected between my amp (stereo receiver) and my speakers. you said to put the compressor between the receiver and the amp but mine are one and the same. I don't have a choice to connect the compressor up between the receiver and the amp. is that a bad thing? also, I still have trouble getting this compressor adjusted to an optimal setting. since the commercials don't have the same "tempo" then what works for one commercial doesn't necessarily work the best for the next one. I still have trouble with some stations when they go to commercials being way too loud. what I've been doing is setting the compressor to work like a limiter, then I make sure the signal from the source is as loud as it can be (i.e. TV receiver), that feeds into the stereo receiver and I adjust the volume from there only, that feeds into the compressor set up as a limiter and those feed the speakers. do you have any insite on how to connect it better or better settings I should look at?
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Using a compressor on a Home Theater setup
2010/08/20 08:35:51
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Hi Beagle I am happy to help. Firstly you say your compressor is connected between receiver and amp. I am assuming power amp is that right? If that is the case that would mean the compressor is working on all your input sources. I have mine patched so it is only working on the TV audio signal, nothing else.
How are you getting the TV audio into the system? I am using a (hi Fi) receiver as well except I am picking up the TV signal from a Sony Bravia LCD TV. It also has a line out (audio and video) which mirrors whatever input channel or AV IN has been selected on the TV. (remote has no effect here on level or muting unfortunately, the line out level is fixed, which is better for a compressor). I am running that audio out signal direct into the compressor. Can you do something similar? I am using a PreSonus BlueMax. (in manual mode not the presets) From the compressor I am feeding one of the tape monitor inputs. (there are two)
The settings are tricky. I have the ratio set for about a 6 or 8 to 1 so its close to limiting. Its one of those fixed threshold devices and depends on how hard you push the input to get the required amount of gain reduction. I have been watching the level variations. Signals vary from quiet to loud obviously. I am trying to find a threshold which allows the quiet levels to pass untouched and they seem to OK. Maybe with -1 db of GR. There is a lot of medium level stuff that pushes the GR down about -3db. However with very loud commercials or shows that are mastered hard its pulling down 5 to 7 db of GR. The attack is over 10 ms. I found that if the attack was too fast you can hear it cut in and jump in too hard. Release is somewhere between 150 and 200 ms. The good news is that even when its pulling down the signal by as much as 5 to 7 db it is difficult to hear it working (ie transperant) so the audio still sounds normal. It might be a case of the better the compressor here the better the result. But overall the audio is much more even now.
Get back with your configuration and maybe we can find a better signal flow. I cannot mute the ads now and my wife is not overly pleased but we like the less level shifting that is going on now. I find you can turn the TV down much more and still hear clearly what is going on. I am thinking about another way to mute the ads now. I might be able to track down the mute circuit in the Bravia and maybe do a mod and get the mute signal out to operate a relay or something so I can. There is a headphone out and that works great and it mutes but it also means the levels are going to be all over the place feeding the compressor and I don't want that.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Using a compressor on a Home Theater setup
2010/08/20 08:40:53
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As far as where you put the compressor... do you use a power amp or powered speakers?
Do you like to adjust levels for different times of day?
You may want something with remote control capability AFTER the compressor... otherwise you will only be able to optimize the compressor for use at one room SPL.
Think in terms of placing it as an Insert (send/return) on a master bus rather than after the master bus.
If you get the compressor in front of your DVD or HD-DVD player than you can maintain full dynamic range on it.
As far as settings... I'd try to get the compressor to stay open and transparent (good luck) on broadcast program material and then have it kick in when the annoying volume boosted advertisements kick in.
Honestly, the idea of placing an "affordable" compressor on a home playback system just seems like an antithesis to the goal of Hi-Fi... so I have answered your question from an abstracted point of view with the goal of being helpful. I can't imagine ever doing this in my living room.
Good luck,
mike
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Using a compressor on a Home Theater setup
2010/08/20 08:49:39
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I have only got the compressor patched from the TV and if I do want to watch a music program and turn it up loud I can easily bypass the compressor to hear the music at its best.
Mike has a good point about putting a compressor into a hi fi situation but I have it only on the fixed audio out level from the TV itself and nothing else. But overall, its ability to smooth out volume variations is more good than bad by far. I also think a cheap compressor may not work so well either. I know the Bluemax is not the most expensive compressor around but it is not a cheap unit either.
It does not sound like its compressing at all even with 7 db of gain reduction.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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Beagle
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Re:Using a compressor on a Home Theater setup
2010/08/20 09:04:40
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Jeff Evans Hi Beagle I am happy to help. Firstly you say your compressor is connected between receiver and amp. I am assuming power amp is that right? If that is the case that would mean the compressor is working on all your input sources. I have mine patched so it is only working on the TV audio signal, nothing else. yes, it's a power amp. It's a typical stereo home receiver system where I have inputs for all of my sources and select which one is routed to the output. yes, in this configuration it would compress all sources, but it's passive if the unit is turned off, so I only turn it on when I want the signal compressed. however, I use it for both TV and for DVD's since a lot of movies tend to have very loud music during the action and then very low volume output for dialog. one other thing about my set up is that it's a 5.1 system so I only have the front 2 speakers on compression. however, when watching TV I change the receiver output to stereo, so that shouldn't be an issue. How are you getting the TV audio into the system? I am using a (hi Fi) receiver as well except I am picking up the TV signal from a Sony Bravia LCD TV. It also has a line out (audio and video) which mirrors whatever input channel or AV IN has been selected on the TV. (remote has no effect here on level or muting unfortunately, the line out level is fixed, which is better for a compressor). I am running that audio out signal direct into the compressor. Can you do something similar? I am using a PreSonus BlueMax. (in manual mode not the presets) From the compressor I am feeding one of the tape monitor inputs. (there are two) My TV receiver is basically a satellite receiver (although we get our satellite signal over fiber optic input from the local phone company). I could put the compressor between the receiver and the power amp if that would make TV compression better than it is now I would do that even tho it would remove compression for DVD's for me (which doesn't work that great either - but a lot of that is because of the rear and center speakers not being compressed at all). I'm using a behringer stereo compressor I forget the model number (they have several models). The settings are tricky. I have the ratio set for about a 6 or 8 to 1 so its close to limiting. Its one of those fixed threshold devices and depends on how hard you push the input to get the required amount of gain reduction. I have been watching the level variations. Signals vary from quiet to loud obviously. I am trying to find a threshold which allows the quiet levels to pass untouched and they seem to OK. Maybe with -1 db of GR. There is a lot of medium level stuff that pushes the GR down about -3db. However with very loud commercials or shows that are mastered hard its pulling down 5 to 7 db of GR. The attack is over 10 ms. I found that if the attack was too fast you can hear it cut in and jump in too hard. Release is somewhere between 150 and 200 ms. The good news is that even when its pulling down the signal by as much as 5 to 7 db it is difficult to hear it working (ie transperant) so the audio still sounds normal. It might be a case of the better the compressor here the better the result. But overall the audio is much more even now. thanks. yes, I've messed with the settings a lot and can't find a setting that works for all cases. I also found that a fast attack will "jump in too hard" but a slow attack tends to let too much through before comping down. Get back with your configuration and maybe we can find a better signal flow. I cannot mute the ads now and my wife is not overly pleased but we like the less level shifting that is going on now. I find you can turn the TV down much more and still hear clearly what is going on. I am thinking about another way to mute the ads now. I might be able to track down the mute circuit in the Bravia and maybe do a mod and get the mute signal out to operate a relay or something so I can. There is a headphone out and that works great and it mutes but it also means the levels are going to be all over the place feeding the compressor and I don't want that.
yeah, I don't want to manually mute the commercials, and neither does the wife. thus the compressor idea. also we don't normally have the TV very loud. I'm not sure of the SPL's (I keep thinking I need to buy a meter but it never gets to the top of the "list"  )
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Beagle
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Re:Using a compressor on a Home Theater setup
2010/08/20 09:11:21
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mike_mccue As far as where you put the compressor... do you use a power amp or powered speakers? power amp and unpowered speakers. Do you like to adjust levels for different times of day? I'm not sure exactly what you're asking, but I guess the answer is "no" not really. we typically run the TV at the same volume all the time regardless of the time of day. even late at night because we don't listen to it really loud anyway. (see above response to Jeff re: spl levels unknown). You may want something with remote control capability AFTER the compressor... otherwise you will only be able to optimize the compressor for use at one room SPL. see above. Think in terms of placing it as an Insert (send/return) on a master bus rather than after the master bus. hmm. ok - I'm not sure how I can get that implemented, but I'll think about that. If you get the compressor in front of your DVD or HD-DVD player than you can maintain full dynamic range on it. see above - sometimes we like to reduce the output of DVD's as well. As far as settings... I'd try to get the compressor to stay open and transparent (good luck) on broadcast program material and then have it kick in when the annoying volume boosted advertisements kick in. yep. that's the problem. Honestly, the idea of placing an "affordable" compressor on a home playback system just seems like an antithesis to the goal of Hi-Fi... so I have answered your question from an abstracted point of view with the goal of being helpful. I can't imagine ever doing this in my living room. well - the living room isn't really for "HI-FI" it's a means of watching TV and movies with my wife who doesn't really appreciate high end audio anyway. I do that on another system in my room if I listen to music just for me. Good luck,
mike
thanks!
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Using a compressor on a Home Theater setup
2010/08/20 09:23:42
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Hi Beagle I asked because at our house the TV volume changes through the day... and if we were to use a compressor and had it set after the master level the compressor could only be optimized for one room SPL... where as if you have after your TV but before your remote output level control you could enjoy the use of the copmpressor at any room SPL.
In my mind the chief benefit is taming the purposely abusive TV commercial volume boosts... which is something the broadcasters used to do for us... but now they are compliant to the clients and allow the levels to be boosted well above the nominal program level during advertisement breaks.
Jeff seems to be set up the way I imagined one would want to do it.
all the best to both of you,
mike
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Using a compressor on a Home Theater setup
2010/08/20 09:29:28
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Well the 5.1 surround thing threw me a bit. That would be tricky (unless you got two compressors and now we are getting silly) I approach watching DVD's as more of a special ocassion thing and turn the DVD player up loud to enjoy the soundtrack as its meant to be. So I don't mind the music and effects being loud and there is usually enough volume left for the dialogue. (although I must admit these days they are mixing dialogue lower. I found in 'The Dark Knight' the dialogue was quiet or was that me? The Behringer should be fine for the job as their compressors are more their stronger point products. You might want to try the AUTO settings too and see how they go. Try patching it between the TV receiver and your hi fi setup and just keep tweaking the settings. If you find it is just not doing enough just keep lowering the threshold slowly and by small amounts until there is a point that is reached that covers higher level variations and transperant operation. You can overdo it too and you dont want it slamming everything that comes its way either. It took a few days before I got it right. I am still tweaking it a bit. Mike is right. I have mine patched so I can still vary the SPL in the room and the compressor is still working the same way all the time.
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2010/08/20 09:31:20
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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Beagle
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Re:Using a compressor on a Home Theater setup
2010/08/20 09:47:48
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great, guys. thanks I'll patch it in after the receiver and before the amp and see how that goes.
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tarsier
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Re:Using a compressor on a Home Theater setup
2010/08/20 11:27:35
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but now they are compliant to the clients and allow the levels to be boosted well above the nominal program level during advertisement breaks. And has anyone else noticed that the Apple commercials are loudest of them all? Someday I'm actually going to measure them to see if that's true or just my wacky ears.
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batsbrew
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Re:Using a compressor on a Home Theater setup
2010/08/20 11:28:25
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most home theatre amps have a built in compressor...
usually it's called 'night mode' or something like that.
mine has 3 levels, normal, low and high.
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Philip
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Re:Using a compressor on a Home Theater setup
2010/08/20 11:42:39
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Ah the loudness wars! (Another reason I don't own a TV).
But on topic: I'd love a compressor on my home theater for the 'music' scenes especially ... that blast extremely loud on the ears. Its amazing how cinema's can compress loud music scenes and keep the chat volumes up. Presently, I'm quite the volume jocky.
(Mine is a Denon flagship ... I'll look for 'knight mode', etc. ... as it would be difficult to compress from BlueRay to the Denon.
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drewfx1
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Re:Using a compressor on a Home Theater setup
2010/08/20 12:22:59
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My impression was that commercials sound louder because they are already compressed (or limited), thus raising the average level.
I thought the FCC (here in the US) didn't allow the commercials to be "louder".
If this is the case, I think a compressor would only make it worse (unless you are doing upward compression, but good luck finding that in an inexpensive HW device).
But perhaps I am misinformed.
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Beagle
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Re:Using a compressor on a Home Theater setup
2010/08/20 12:33:27
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Gonzo - mine doesn't have that. it's an old receiver from the mid-80's that I've never upgraded (nor do I see the need to since it still works!)
drewfx1
My impression was that commercials sound louder because they are already compressed (or limited), thus raising the average level.
I thought the FCC (here in the US) didn't allow the commercials to be "louder".
If this is the case, I think a compressor would only make it worse (unless you are doing upward compression, but good luck finding that in an inexpensive HW device).
But perhaps I am misinformed.
Drew - I believe you're right about the commercials already being limited, at least that's the way I've been approaching the problem. I'm not really trying to limit the commercials because they're already crushed to a brick, I am actually trying to compress everything else so that it will match the rms of the commercials and then when I turn the volume down on the output I'll have the same levels throughout the listening experience. or that was the plan. am I wrong in thinking I can make that work that way? if I limit everything coming out of the TV then the lower signals (non-commercials) should be brought up to the same level as the commercials which won't be compressed any more than they already are (basically) right? as far as the FCC no allowing commercials to be louder. someone should tell them it isn't being followed.
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batsbrew
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Re:Using a compressor on a Home Theater setup
2010/08/20 12:41:38
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HOME THEATRE-
these days, equates to at least 6.1, typically 7.1, and all of those types of systems come with the bells and whistles.
on certain soundtracks (and certain music dvd's) it's well worth the upgrade.
it's not whether or not it works...
it's a different animal altogether.
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Beagle
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Re:Using a compressor on a Home Theater setup
2010/08/20 12:45:25
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batsbrew
HOME THEATRE-
these days, equates to at least 6.1, typically 7.1, and all of those types of systems come with the bells and whistles.
on certain soundtracks (and certain music dvd's) it's well worth the upgrade.
it's not whether or not it works...
it's a different animal altogether.
but I'd rather spend my money on studio or music equipment.
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batsbrew
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Re:Using a compressor on a Home Theater setup
2010/08/20 13:03:56
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i hear you!!
LOL
i go digital out of my DVD recorder, via sp/dif, so i don't have the option of adding hardware
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drewfx1
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Re:Using a compressor on a Home Theater setup
2010/08/20 13:45:22
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Ah, seems I was misinformed (again): From http://fcc.gov/cgb/consum...s/backgroundnoise.html The Federal Communications Commission (FCC) does not currently regulate the volume of programs or commercials. Broadcasters and program producers, however, have considerable latitude to vary the “loudness” of the program material. However, there was a bill passed (the CALM Act) by the House last year, then sent to the Senate, where ... From http://www.govtrack.us/co...ill.xpd?bill=h111-1084 Introduced Feb 13, 2009
Referred to Committee View Committee Assignments
Reported by Committee Nov 19, 2009
Passed House Dec 15, 2009
Senate Vote ...
Signed by President ...
The Senate's version of the bill http://www.govtrack.us/co...ill.xpd?bill=s111-2847 Introduced Dec 8, 2009
Referred to Committee View Committee Assignments
Reported by Committee Jun 9, 2010
Senate Vote ...
House Vote ...
Signed by President ...
post edited by drewfx1 - 2010/08/20 13:52:31
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Rbh
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Re:Using a compressor on a Home Theater setup
2010/08/20 20:46:18
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The biggest issue fidelity wise is that commercial releases are so over compressed that you will likely only be able to regulate the level using it as a limiter anyways. Which will likely make it sound twice as bad. The trade off becomes....... bad sound.. or loud bad sound. I think it might be better to operate in expansion mode bringing the weak levels up. Maybe what we all really need is a fader on our remotes....quick simple and to the point.
I personally think that remotes are terribly engineered.
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Using a compressor on a Home Theater setup
2010/08/20 22:08:11
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Rbh you have got me thinking there. Expansion would be a sensible approach as it is the quieter levels we are trying to preserve. I do find though the compressor idea still works well especially if it a transperant sounding device that can still sound good when pushed hard and the PreSonus BlueMax does a fine job of it.
I have got a Behringer UltraCurve Mastering processor lying around so I might check into it and see if it can do expansion. Could be a bit of overkill though for levelling out TV sound.
I am still amazed at the volume variations though. The compressor goes from -1 db Gain reduction up to -7 db at times!
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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