Soundtrapper
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Did you ever
record anything with analog that sounds as good
as what you can do now with digital?
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Jonbouy
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Re:Did you ever
2010/09/14 19:38:34
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Soundtrapper
record anything with analog that sounds as good
as what you can do now with digital?
Taped drums always sound better to me than digitally recorded ones.
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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Soundtrapper
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Re:Did you ever
2010/09/15 10:16:38
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I don't know if I have any analog recordings
that I could compare...
A drum part recorded and played back -all analog
A drum part recorded and played back- all digital ( or any instrument)
The only two comparisons I can make is my old records
played back thru the same DAW I record with. There is
no comparison. The records sound horrible.
90% of all my records were played one, maybe two times.
I always recorded them to cassette the first play.
The other way is recordings we made in the late seventies
in the bass players 8-trk home studio. Again there is no
comparison. The quality of recordings I can make now is
better. I don't remember all the equipment we had but
I do know that he wasn't and still isn't the kind to skimp.
I know a few years back he sent me a couple of CD's of
recordings I'd long forgotten...best forgotten.
I also wonder- if analog was better then why isn't it still
the most preferred? At least I don't think it is but I really don't
know. Do we really sacrifice quality for digital convenience?
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57Gregy
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Re:Did you ever
2010/09/15 11:46:54
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A few months back there was an interview with Eddie Kramer (recording engineer for Woodstock, among many others) in the Guitar Center catalog. He said that he usually records digital now, then records that to tape, does some stuff, back to digital. He may do that several times. http://gc.guitarcenter.com/interview/eddie-kramer/ Edited to insert link.
post edited by 57Gregy - 2010/09/15 12:00:54
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guitardog247
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Re:Did you ever
2010/09/15 13:47:42
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I'm doing something similiar for my next recordings: playing back Sonar loudly from by monitors. Then recording that with a thrift store cassette recorder using the built-in mic. Going line-out back into the PC, touching up the two-track stereo recording with Sound forge. Then repeating the procedure several times. Evetually end up with an mp3 that is converted too hot.
Sonar, Les Paul Studio, FTU, puter, plugs.........
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Jonbouy
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Re:Did you ever
2010/09/15 14:25:08
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I don't know if I have any analog recordings that I could compare... A drum part recorded and played back -all analog A drum part recorded and played back- all digital ( or any instrument) Let me put it this way, would you ever record an electric guitar digitally through a hi-fi amp? Nope, the sound is completely over-driven, compressed and mangled through a tube amp before it even hits the daw. It's what you guys call tone. Guitar amps are notoriously lo-fi. Similarly drums sound beautiful recorded with the 'limitations' imposed on the sound by using tape.
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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Soundtrapper
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Re:Did you ever
2010/09/15 14:56:33
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Jonbouy
I don't know if I have any analog recordings that I could compare... A drum part recorded and played back -all analog A drum part recorded and played back- all digital ( or any instrument)
Let me put it this way, would you ever record an electric guitar digitally through a hi-fi amp?
Nope, the sound is completely over-driven, compressed and mangled through a tube amp before it even hits the daw. It's what you guys call tone. Guitar amps are notoriously lo-fi.
Similarly drums sound beautiful recorded with the 'limitations' imposed on the sound by using tape.
In answer to your question; I haven't recorded using an amp of any kind since 2007. I personally can't tell when I'm listening if something has been recorded with analog or digital equipment. Many times I can't even tell if it's a real instrument or not. ( naturally on well produced material) If you can that's cool by me. And if we were recording and you wanted to record a certain way...cool by me too. So your answer to my question is, yes. Mine is no.
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Jonbouy
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Re:Did you ever
2010/09/15 15:37:34
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In answer to your question; I haven't recorded using an amp of any kind since 2007. Not even using some type of post tracking amp/cab emulation? I think you knew the point of what I was saying here. Like you a can rarely tell on a well produced track the difference between what is digital and what ain't but I tend to prefer the recordings I've made to tape. There's something less harsh (generally) particularly around the top end where's cymbals and such (particularly ride pings, and closed hats) sound more fluid and less fried than digital recordings tend to be. I still find that particular aspect of behaviour difficult to attain in the digital realm, despite exhaustive attempts at trying to get close. I guess it's just a sound I got used to hearing over the years and likely it wouldn't bug anybody else, but there it is.
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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marcos69
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Re:Did you ever
2010/09/15 15:57:10
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A lot of my old tapes had better sounding guitars. The casio keyboard bass and drums sucked ass though.
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Soundtrapper
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Re:Did you ever
2010/09/15 17:42:57
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No Jon. Nothing. I plug into my interface directly (UA-101) and it's digital from there on out. (no analog amps of any kind) If you record your guitar to tape Mark and Jon records the drums to tape and it sounds better than recording to you're DAW's then that's a great alternative to have. Maybe whatever the tape capture's will make it thru the conversion to your DAW. So are you guys recording the guitar and drums to tape and then sending that into the project? If so, does it maintain the characteristic's that made it preferable or did the conversion mess it up? If the conversion doesn't mess it up then I'm confused. I read where some are using tape and that just doesn't make sense to me. It seems like what one may be hearing to say that analog is better to their ears would be lost at any point it is converted to digital.
post edited by Soundtrapper - 2010/09/15 17:45:52
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Jonbouy
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Re:Did you ever
2010/09/15 20:22:11
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Soundtrapper
No Jon. Nothing. I plug into my interface directly (UA-101) and it's digital
from there on out. (no analog amps of any kind)
If you record your guitar to tape Mark and Jon records the drums to tape
and it sounds better than recording to you're DAW's then that's a great
alternative to have. Maybe whatever the tape capture's will make it
thru the conversion to your DAW.
So are you guys recording the guitar and drums to tape and then sending
that into the project?
If so, does it maintain the characteristic's that made it preferable or did
the conversion mess it up?
If the conversion doesn't mess it up then I'm confused.
I read where some are using tape and that just doesn't make sense
to me. It seems like what one may be hearing to say that analog is
better to their ears would be lost at any point it is converted to digital.
Certainly digital is more faithful, flexible and is perfect for reproducing sounds once they have been captured, and sure I love the capabilities we have for mixing and mangling now over the dark days of 4 track recorders and the like and I'm sure far better equipped as far as capability goes with my inexpensive hobbyist gear today than any studio that I recorded in during the '70's and 80's. But the original question was did you ever record anything with analog that sounds as good as what you can do now with digital? And I'm telling you now that every track I recorded then onto tape sounds 'better' than I could record straight onto digital gear, where I'd have to post process it to make it sound nearly as right. Sure I'll have a greater frequency range and plenty of signal to work and all that good stuff but it will sound thin, stark and sterile compared to how tape used to leave the final sound. Also you know full well if you didn't process your electric guitar in some way albeit digitally in order to give it the 'tone' you were after it would sound dreadful. I'm just saying if you record a drum kit nicely to tape to me it sounds good like it should and nothing else is required. The beauty of digital then comes into it's own as once that lovingly created taped track is encoded into digital form then I can do what I like with it without any perceptible loss of quality. There are many things that sound better 'recorded' with analogue gear but for intermediate mixing and reproduction digital is a much better bet of course. It's not a case of one thing vs another they both have strengths, and yes we do sacrifice quality for convenience very often, remember transistor radios being introduced when valve sets were already much better, cassette tape gaining the consumer hold over 8 track, or even ghastly mp3's still being more popular than flac or any other lossless codec that has been lying around around for years.
post edited by Jonbouy - 2010/09/15 20:23:45
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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marcos69
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Re:Did you ever
2010/09/15 23:17:41
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I'm not recording to tape now. I'm refering to old recordings. I have toyed with the idea of a re-amping of sorts by sending the digital signal to tape and back to the daw. Just never seem to have the time to mess with it though.
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Jonbouy
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Re:Did you ever
2010/09/16 07:49:15
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marcos69
I'm not recording to tape now. I'm refering to old recordings. I have toyed with the idea of a re-amping of sorts by sending the digital signal to tape and back to the daw. Just never seem to have the time to mess with it though.
+1
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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Slugbaby
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Re:Did you ever
2010/09/16 08:26:07
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Yes and no.
I once recorded a (pro studio/ 'name' producer/ etc) album with ProTools, and it sounded alright.
We re-recorded it using a 2" Studer tape machine and all analogue equipment, and it sounded fantastic.
Then we mastered it, squashing the s*** out of it and ruining the project (as far as I was concerned).
With the unmastered versions, analogue won. Overall, we butchered the PT version less during the mastering stage...
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Soundtrapper
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Re:Did you ever
2010/09/16 08:49:39
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I did record an instrumental for radio play. At that time, sometime in the mid-eighties, I had a Yamaha 4-trk cassette and thought by using it and a stereo VHS tape I could limit the bounces and get a decent take. (addition- I still have the old Yamaha drum machine I used-one of the first I would guess) I sounded very good on the radio. I wish I had it now. Lost it somehow. Unless an old friend sends me something of the studio work I did I won't get to hear how any of my old analog recording went. I didn't even get a copy of the records. Just a forgotten hired gun I reckon. ammend 2- I would really get a kick out of going here. Almost worth putting a band together just so I could hear it.
post edited by Soundtrapper - 2010/09/16 09:21:05
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Jonbouy
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Re:Did you ever
2010/09/16 09:28:50
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Almost worth putting a band together just so I could hear it. I'm in... 
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Wood67
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Re:Did you ever
2010/09/16 09:40:27
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Hmm. I was lucky enough to be working in pro studios in the late 80s - early 90s. This was the start of the transition from 2" tape using Studer machines at 30ips towards digital (Otari 1"). The producer I worked with was as new as anyone to this and for one album we blagged an Otari machine and decided to try digital (I think this was the 'Fully Completely' album by the Tragically Hip - you can see me on the liner notes  ). The music was all rock so analog instruments barring a couple of keyboard boards and the occassional drum sample replacement. 48 tracks, and we were using an SSL board for mixing, and a Neve for recording. The micing and recording approach was identical and we used mainly analog compressors (1176 typically) To be honest, we found no discernible difference at all between the captured sound in either format. The tape op was happier because it was a lot less heavy to move the tapes around and less arsing about with a screwdriver to adjust the playback/record heads. When I visited him in his studio earlier this year he was now using a RADAR hard disk recorder for everything. Still has the 1176s though!
Wood Studio One 3 Pro, (Sonar Platinum), Intel i7, Win10 Pro, 32Gb ram, RME Babyface Pro, Behringer X-Touch, Presonus Faderport, Akai MPK49, Arturia KeyLab25, KRK Rokit 5 monitors, and other sonic surprises.
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Soundtrapper
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Re:Did you ever
2010/09/16 10:45:53
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Jonbouy
Almost worth putting a band together just so I could hear it.
I'm in...
Nashville isn't far from me. I get a rush just thinking about being in the same room with other players AND the engineers recording the session. I can remember the last time I was in the studio. I don't remember the exact year but the band I was in (guys I grew up with) had three days in that studio. It was in Albuq. NM. We had a blast and I never heard one note we recorded because I wouldn't sign the contract the studio wanted me sign. It gave them the rights to any and everything I did for 10 years. Made the other guys mad at me too. I'm glad it was at the end of the recording time that the contract was brought up because it was fantastic fun. I remember the stuff I heard at that time being good. At least we were all very happy about the whole thing. I know that was mid-early seventies. I don't know what kind of equipment the studio used and we did get to control our recording sound- the studio producer got pissed at us and left before the first day was over...our drummers dad owned the studio lol.
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Jonbouy
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Re:Did you ever
2010/09/16 12:47:22
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To be honest, we found no discernible difference at all between the captured sound in either format.
What not even the very minimum of the known phenomenon of an often large head bump around the kick drum frequency when recording at 15ips and a paltry SNR of around 25db RMS or often less to operate within? I guess that's one of the reasons the Bonham sound never got equalled since the '70's if no one by that time could discern or cared about the difference caused by tracking a kit at 15ips. Some engineers stayed with it though despite tape speeds getting up to 60ips and retro studios, like the one Michael pointed to now have actually worked out the reasons why less was more in certain circumstances. But who ever listened to the drummer?
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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Guitarhacker
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Re:Did you ever
2010/09/16 12:48:19
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Soundtrapper
I never heard one note we recorded because I wouldn't sign the
contract the studio wanted me sign. It gave them the rights to any
and everything I did for 10 years. Made the other guys mad at me too.
I'm glad it was at the end of the recording time that the contract was
brought up because it was fantastic fun.
That sounds like a rip.... If you were paying for the time, there should have been NO contract required by the studio other than your agreement to pay for the time. The only time a contract like that should, or would pop up legitimately, would be on a work for hire, but even then, it just covers that ONE song or session.... definitely not everything you write for the next 10 years...
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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Wood67
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Re:Did you ever
2010/09/16 13:09:53
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What not even the very minimum of the known phenomenon of an often large head bump around the kick drum frequency when recording at 15ips and a paltry SNR of around 25db RMS or often less to operate within? Nah. But our reference was Ampex 456 @ 30ips vs the Otari 1" (can't actually remember the speed of that - could have been 30 or maybe 15?).
Wood Studio One 3 Pro, (Sonar Platinum), Intel i7, Win10 Pro, 32Gb ram, RME Babyface Pro, Behringer X-Touch, Presonus Faderport, Akai MPK49, Arturia KeyLab25, KRK Rokit 5 monitors, and other sonic surprises.
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Soundtrapper
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Re:Did you ever
2010/09/16 13:56:21
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Guitarhacker
Soundtrapper
I never heard one note we recorded because I wouldn't sign the
contract the studio wanted me sign. It gave them the rights to any
and everything I did for 10 years. Made the other guys mad at me too.
I'm glad it was at the end of the recording time that the contract was
brought up because it was fantastic fun.
That sounds like a rip.... If you were paying for the time, there should have been NO contract required by the studio other than your agreement to pay for the time. The only time a contract like that should, or would pop up legitimately, would be on a work for hire, but even then, it just covers that ONE song or session.... definitely not everything you write for the next 10 years...
Herb I didn't say there was a contract required. Nor did I say we paid for studio time. Our drummers dad owned the studio. We recorded music for his mom's album and they gave us studio time in exchange. The guys showed me the contract the studio wanted us to sign AFTER we had finished doing our thing. I don't know why the studio wanted us under a contract but I also didn't care. All I knew was nobody was going to own me for 10 years for anything. Legitimate or not it was a contract for anything I would write or record for 10 years. And it was legitimate as those three members signed it. I also know two of them were sorry they did. By saying "definitely not" you are in fact saying I'm a liar. I know what happened and there are others involved that know too. You are definitely way out of line. And you could at least get it right...it was not only for anything we wrote, it was also for anything we recorded. Val-West Studio in Albq. was the studio. Mike Valvano was the producer. I don't know if him or JC West are alive but I do know that the other members of the group are and I know what they'd have to say about your statement(s). Addition; After Drew folded, Mike produced two Precisions singles for Atco Records that flopped. He scored with a psychedelic version of the Animals' "House of the Rising Sun" by Frijid Pink, but didn't get paid, and moped around Motown complaining -- he still hung around -- when Berry interceded with some slick mouthpieces who got Valvano his money. He returned to produce Stoney & Meatloaf and other acts on the Rare Earth label. Motown relocated to Los Angeles in the '70s and was looking for new talent and sounds; they got both by signing Xit, a Native American band from Albuquerque, NM. Gordy sent Valvano to Albuquerque to oversee his new act, where he fell in love, married a local, and stayed for 20 years. And "yes" that is the Mike Valvano I'm speaking of.
post edited by Soundtrapper - 2010/09/16 14:34:07
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Soundtrapper
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Re:Did you ever
2010/09/17 06:09:03
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Herb in response to you calling me a liar I have a few things. I mailed my bassist friend that I grew up. I'll post what I sent him and I'll have to edit some language from what he mailed back. He didn't mind that I would copy his letter and did state that he would really enjoy meeting you, as I. Part of mail I sent: Tom I need memory confirmation and hope you don't mind. I mentioned the time we recorded at Val-West and best I can re-call it was '74-'75. I also mentioned that after we got back home that you and the other guys had been given a contract and one for me too. I remember it being for everything that we would write or record for 10 years would be the studio's. Is my memory serving me correctly and also do you mind me sharing your reply- if I'm correct LOL...if I'm all wet let's just keep it between us. Marty says I'm remembering things right. She agreed that Valvano walked out on us after 40 somethin takes on the same tune LOL. and we were on our own after that. Well if you'll share your memory of those fantastic days I'd appreciate it. Reply, edited for rating. JC West passed also, Bea is in a rest home with Alzheimer’s real bad – knows nobody. Still hearing from all the band guys except ‘Olt Bizger, I think he’s pissed at me since I hate that ---obama ----. JO still calls me at 0300 (0500 his time) wired up like a $1200.00 timex. I will email JO & have him call me tonite – see if he remembers what happened in those foggy years.
Some of this Valvano stuff is coming back to me now, seems like it was more like ’75 – ’76 but could be earlier. Now that you mention it, I think I do remember something about him wanting rights to some music & 10 years sounds right. I don’t think there would be anything to worry about, Valvano probably ain’t even still alive, I remember him being kinda sickly lookin’ anyway. It’s been 35 years you know. Most of what I remember about him was that he was a ----- that didn’t know ****!! Also, as far as a contract, I would be surprised if Norris & JC would have let us sign one.
– Damn----Building Guitars !! Damn you’re a beast!!! I just bought a Takamini 12 string & a Marshal ½ stack – yeah like I need any of that ****!! Here’s a challenge for ya—build me a double neck electric !!!!
Keep in touch buddy– I’ll let you know if JO remembers anything-
Tom Well take it for what it's worth Herb because unfortunately it's the only
thing I could do about you calling me a liar.
And that I think you demonstrated your reading skills and the fact that
your not as smart as you think you are. But that is not a problem
for me as I know you'll never be anybody reading a contract with/for me.
I guess I should thank you for giving me a push to contact my old friend.
But I'm not thanking you for anything and I'm done with this.
Seem's like anytime a thread about anything gets started here it's
a problem...some joker is always popping up. I often wondered why
so many good folks I enjoyed here are gone. It's becoming very clear.
post edited by Soundtrapper - 2010/09/17 06:11:39
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Wood67
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Re:Did you ever
2010/09/17 08:05:52
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Spacey - I'm not convinced Herb was actually calling you a liar at all. I read his comment to reflect his shock that a studio would attempt to claim a 10 year right on anything you write/record - not that he didn't believe your recollection. You might give him a chance to explain his viewpoint before getting mad.
post edited by Wood67 - 2010/09/17 08:07:14
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Soundtrapper
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Re:Did you ever
2010/09/17 08:31:29
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Wood67
Spacey - I'm not convinced Herb was actually calling you a liar at all. I read his comment to reflect his shock that a studio would attempt to claim a 10 year right on anything you write/record - not that he didn't believe your recollection. You might give him a chance to explain his viewpoint before getting mad.
I appreciate your words, very much. I explained why I though he was calling me a liar. There is always the possibility that I mis-read his intention/meaning. I have done that a few times before. I would prefer to think I'm defensive and sometimes over sensitive but "mad"? No. Upset yes. It's also tuff to take people that jump at the chance to give legal advice and also make statements that "forums" are the last place you want to take anybodies legal advice. I said they had a contract they wanted each of us to sign- he said they definately wouldn't do that. BS-they did. My wife, before we were married, spent those days with us and she read Herb the same way I did. Maybe a culture difference in how to say something...I don't know. But on my side of the tracks it read as he assumed we were ripped off when no money transactions had been mentioned (as it was free recording time) and then assumed he knew all the contracts that a studio would offer and definately would not offer one that I said they did. They were fantastic, great memories (as I remember them) and it's a bummer when one tries to share stuff like that and has to tolerate insults, jokes and name calling...but if it's a misunderstanding good. I don't like the drama at all. Thanks Wood, Michael
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