correct order of a efx chain on the master buss ? What level do you all mix to ?

Hi all

This has no dout been coverd before but I was hopeing for a bit of advice...

So I have been learning as much as I can about sonar as I go along and I am loveing every momment of it

I now have a good ammount of songs ready for mixing etc so its time for me to give it a dam good go
I dont want to do a half arsed attemt at it so there  is a few questions I would like to ask ?

What level is best to mix to by that I meen what should I be peeking at on the master buss before anything is added to it ? I heave from some its -12 others -6 and others say just use your ears

What are your thoughts

So once I figure out a ruff level to aim at for instance nothing peeking above -12 to leave a lot of head room on the master buss ( or whatever you guys recomend)

The next step is to start adding eq compression limiters like boost 11 etc

So what should I be useing and in what order are they supoz to go

I am sorry to any one who thinks this is a noob question but if I dont ask I will never know and I just want to learn the correct way

The only tools I have are what come with SP8.5 and also a program called ezmix.

What are all your thoughts?

Thanks to every one for any help and advice on this!

I hope to hear back to try mixing some tracks tomorow :D

Norrie

Hi again Norrie!

Looks like thing are doing fine!

Every questions you have here depend on how you like to work and which tests you have done that have acheived the best result.

The key word here is TESTING.

Read as many infos as you can and test everything.

You want to put a reverb before a compressor while everyone tells you its not good?  TEST it!!
you can achieve very unque technique if you don't fear to not "do it right" the first time.

Anyway here's how I do and keep in mind that I don't hold THE "truth".

First, I send the drums and bass to the same buss, ensure there's a cut in the kick around 200-250hz and a light boost in the bass in this range if needed.

 This way everything can be heard and I compress with sonitus multiband.  I keep a fast attack and release below 100hz and keep an overall dynamic range of 6 db.  Note that I mainly do metal stuff.  I mainly eq with multiband too on this buss.  Be carefull on the ultrahighs cause they can become really annoying later.  I keep everything around +/-12db.

I send rythm guitar to another buss, leads guiatr to another.  The tube limiter by studio devil (inculded in Sonar 8.5) on these busses can do really great things.  I adjust the volume of these with the drum/bass by ears.

Vocals to another buss with a light reverb to tie them togheter. Mix with the rest.

 I keep my average mix level around -6,-7db, don't mind if there's sometimes peaks around -3,-2db.

Here comes the shelling. On the master buss,  Linear multiband first.  Thighten bass if needed, bring farward or backward low mids , mids, highs etc.  Linear EQ after.  Surgical things here. Cut all unwanted freq till you like what you hear. Boost if needed. Last but not least: Boost11.  If you've done well, Boost11 should only tame the peeks without touching the "meat" of the wave.  Boost as much as you can without causing your mix to "choke". If it choke, turn back a little. If the volume is not loud enough (compared to a wathever "pro" mix), find which instrument is too loud, adjust it and retry.  Your fist mixes WILL take long to get what you want and maybe you'll have to go far backward in your mixing steps but once you get it: CONGRAT!  you're one step closer to excellence!

Don't forget it's the way that work best for me so far, and probably if you ask to 100 enginers they will have 100 differents ways to do things. 100 differents ways shure but I think they share the same basis... which I'm still in search of!


Anyway I hope it will help you get started and don't forget to try things!
Good luck with your mixes!

This is all really really good stuf guys thanks for everything

On a side note I was hopeing to figure out.....

Once att the mixing stage say for instance I have a vox track and I want it to peek no more than -12 so I lower the fader till i get the level I want  but every so often there is a few peeks going up over the 0db mark

What plugin could I put on that track from Sonar p that would stop the signal going past the -12 mark and whats the best way to set it ?

Would it be a limiter ? what would i set the limiter to ?

Thanks again to everyone :)

Norrie 

For what it's worth, I was wondering the same thing and came across this site:
http://audio.tutsplus.com...in-15-minutes-or-less/

(although the title is somewhat amusing; as I say at work when someone gives an unrealistic time-frame "We can always do a bad job in a short time.")

Norrie,

no, nothing should go into the red - not tracks or buses or master bus.  Doing pop or rock, you probably want to hear the bass and drum together so that you can hear the kick and the bass separately.  Kinda funky since both are usually close to center.

You probably don't want the bass on a bus, either - it can just go to the master.  Buses are for treating certain elements together - unless you have several basses playing, no need.  Use track fx.

The great thing about buses is the interior ratio of instruments (such as drums) doesn't change but you can lower the overall sound in the final mix.  If your drum bus is clipping, you need to back off the bus volume.  No need for boost 11 - it (and all comps/limiters) will screw with your sound.  If your drum bus is redlining, so will your master unless you pull it down.

The simplest way to think of comps is that they reduce the dynamic range of the track/bus.  Take drums - if you squash the bejebbers out of it your high-hat is getting almost as loud as your snare, or tom rolls.  It makes the sound flat, one-dimentional and, dare I say, harsh.  When you add that bus to a guitar bus with no depth, your song loses any dynamics, any air around the sounds for your ear to breath (boy, that is a mixed metaphor), and sounds even flatter.  Get a mix together and take out the comps and see the effect. 

I usually start w/ every track at -6dB and pull down from there.  My mixes usually come out -12 to -6 dB.  Once I'm happy, I export it.  Usually that is via analog outs, where I use analog compression/limting and play with that and get a hotter signal.  You can do the same ITB.  Then in Sound Forge I add a final touch of EQ and compression to the file, just a touch, usually to make the songs sound like a coherent CD w/ the same levels and general EQ.  And in CD Architect, you can do the final db adjustment.  I think it has about 1 db + or - for a final tweak when you hear the songs butted up against the other. 

So don't worry about getting your mix as hot as possible.  You can do that in the mastering stage, tho one thing you might want to do is put boost 11 on the master bus and engage it only to see how your mastered song will sound.  I also recommend, if possible, something like Voxengo's package for mastering - Curve EQ and Elephant.  Cheap and very good.  I like them better than Cake's stuff, but I had them before the 64 bit stuff so I haven't really used Cake's mastering tools.  You may find them as good.

@

Norrie, just for your information, I use BFD2 for my drumming needs, and I've noticed that if I use their mixing presets, they too clip like crazy when I bring them into Sonar.

There are a couple of solutions:

1 - Don't use the presets in the plug, bring all your drum outputs separately into Sonar and mix from there
2 - Lower all the faders in the plug by about 12db


I personally am happier using option 1, and I end up with about 20 or so drum tracks in Sonar

These are routed to separate busses, as follows:

Kick > Bass Bus (along with my Bass track(s))
Snare, Cymbals, Hi-Hat > Drum bus
Toms > Tom bus
Tom Buss > Dum Bus

I'll apply a bit of gentle compression on the individual tracks, where needed (Kick/Snare/Toms)
A little bit more on the busses (Bass/Toms/Drums)

By the time this all reaches the mater bus, I've got the exact amount of compression I need, still leaving room for the drums to "breathe", but with controlled dynamics.

On a typical rock song, I end up with quite a few busses:

Bass
Toms
Drums
Lead Gtrs
Rhythm Guitars
Lead Vox
Backing Vox
Keyboards
Strings

etc.


These then all feed what I call a "Pre Master" bus which in turn feeds the master bus

This is useful as I can apply my chain of mastering plugs and enable/disable it at will for comparison purposes.


Hope this helps!!!!

Some FX will cause clipping in the tracks even if the levels are not above 0db.

Melodyne.... on my system has a bad tendency to do that to the vocal track. It is NOT evident during the playback but it sure turns to crap when it gets exported.

I just had to go back and reduce the track level two times by 2 db each time, and BTW: during playback BEFORE I reduced anything.... the meter did not touch the red anywhere.  It was a try it and see thing..... finally got the vox out and clean....

Norrie,

you seem to be asking all the right questions, keep going for it.  There are no stupid questions (tho there are plenty of stupid people that ask them).

a lot of good answers above - your question was pretty broad and doubled so you are going to get shotgun style answers.  But many people will tell you their way of doing things, letting you pick and choose what works for you.  File the tips/tricks away and use them to see if they work for you.  As to the rules, there are good reasons why they exist - such as Jonbouy's eq then comp.  That is how I work most of the time, but you can, of course, eq an already comped track.  You should have a reason, tho.

Or like my advice not to worry about the mix volume.  That was important back in analog days, not so much now since there are various ways to raise the average level of a song.  The real trick to mixing is to find you a convienent layout so you can tweak the bus mixes, raising the mix a few dbs w/ a few faders or lower it the same way.  Music has a lot of science in it, but it is art.  It takes time, but also an enquiring mind, which you obviously have.

@

Hey guys thanks for all the replys

Haha

Now where to start with what I have read above.........

Bristol..... I am glad I am not the only one who is seeing a drum program causeing instant cliping.

I am doing exactly like you are now and mixing out of the box well out of SD2 that is and sending to tracks in Sonar by doing this I felt it would give me more of a feel as if I was actualy mixing a accoustic kit and I would then have an Idea about how to go about it when the time comes ( apart from mic positions but I will get round to that when I need to)

So I do all my drums sent out of Sd to individual tracks now and it works better for me that way :)

I am glad to hear I am not the only one.

Thanks also to AT and Jon for the kind replys and great help aswell

Good to know you are all willing to help especialy when I want to learn so bad :)

We were talking above about my use of busses and for instance haveing one bus for the leed guitar and one for the bass etc.....

I should have explained that a bit better so I am sorry

The reason I have been doing it that way is because I have been useing out board gear for my sounds rather than plugins for my guitars and bass

I have been useing a Vamp pro and Vamp pro bass

Once I have my first guitar down I need to then freeze the track so I can use the amp for my next part problem I have found with this is though I cant then add anything on to the freezed track so I send it out to a bus then add in what ever I need :)

Thats my reason for haveing a leed buss and bass bus etc.... a bus for this that and the next thing haha

Is this the wrong way for me to be doing this ?

I would rather get out of bad habits now than find out later on down the line I could have been doing things a lot better

You guys have been great I cant thank you enough this thread is a great help to me!

Norrie

+1 AT


Norrie, another way around your problem with frozen tracks is this.

1 - Copy/Drag your frozen track into a new track (so you now have 2, one frozen, one unforzen)
2 - Mute (or archive) and hide your frozen track

Now you can apply any Fx to the copy in the tracks own Fx bin

If you want to revisit your frozen track, unfreeze it, make any changes via the Pod or V-Amp, then freeze again, and copy/drag down to the clone.

This way, you can the set up your busses accordingly - just have one bus for lead guitars, another bus for Rhythm/Acoustic guitars, another one for drums etc.