Mark Viera
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I need help with gain too high during recording in MC4
I have been doing some recording of my son’s drums for a few months and I have had an ongoing problem with the gain being too high.
I have a Delta 44 sound card and I’m using MC4 and a Yamaha MG 16/4 mixing board
I think the problem is occurring because I’m running a ¼ inch phono cable from “Insert I/O” of the mixer channels 1 through 3 to first 3 INS on the Delta sound card. No matter how low I put the gain or slider I get clipping in MC 4 for that track if my son plays hard.
The reason I decided to do it that way rather than just take a line from the output of the mixer is so I could have separate tracks in MC4.
As a test I ran just one mic and sent the output from the “Insert I/O” on a Mackie mixer to INS 1 on the Delta and that same thing happens
With the setting below I’m able to get Bass Drum, Snare and High Hat on the first three tracks in MC4. The other 4 drums are mixed down through my Yamaha MG 16/4 ST buss and to Track 4 in MC4. It seems to work. Please let me know if you see problems.
MC4 Track 1 Input = Left M-Audio Delta ASIO Analog In 1 Delta 44 (Track Properties)
MC4 Track 2 Input = Right M-Audio Delta ASIO Analog In 1 Delta 44 (Track Properties)
MC4 Track 3 Input = Left M-Audio Delta ASIO Analog In 3 Delta 44 (Track Properties)
MC4 Track 4 Input = Right M-Audio Delta ASIO Analog In 3 Delta 44 (Track Properties)
On the Yamaha mixing board run all 7 microphones XLR into first seven channels (use the 3 drum mics you want to be able to mix separately later as the first 3 channels. On mixing board, for first 3 channels, run ¼ inch phono cable from “Insert I/O” to first 3 INS on the Delta sound card. Be sure to turn the ST Button off for each of the first 3 channels (that way, the signal will not get sent to the ST out as well). Run a ¼ inch phono cable from ST Out L to the 4th INS on the Delta Sound card
Mark My Setup: OS: Windows 7 64bit CPU: Xeon 2GHz Quad Core Hard drives: (2) 1TB and 500GB SATA 7200 RAM Memory: 4GB Sound Card: Delta 44 Music Creator 4 Mackie 802VLZ-3 Mixer Yamaha MG1604 Mixer (for Drum mix down) Mackie MR5 monitors
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57Gregy
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Re:I need help with gain too high during recording in MC4
2010/11/12 21:02:41
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Go into the Delta's software mixer and reduce the input level. Or if there is a hardware knob.
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RobertB
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Re:I need help with gain too high during recording in MC4
2010/11/12 21:49:20
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Well, I'mm a bit confused, because my understanding is that MC4 only supports one stereo pair for input. ie 1/2 or 3/4.
Are you saying you have all four recording simultaniously?
As for the mixer, yes using the Insert connections completely bypasses whatever control the mixer would have, and your only recourse is to use the Delta controls, as Greg mentioned. YOu may have limited control using the gain knob, but this is just a trim control for the preamp.
A better sollution would probably be to use the main and aux outs of the mixer.
Set 1/2 to the mains, and 3/4 to aux. this way you have full control over levels.
I believe Rob uses an MG/16/4 and can correct or verify this.
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Beagle
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Re:I need help with gain too high during recording in MC4
2010/11/13 08:18:21
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+1 to everything Bob said. including the simultaneous inputs. All Music Creator products (except PRO) from the beginning have been limited to 2 simultaneous inputs. Actually, MC4 and below didn't require stereo pairs, you could pick inputs 1 and 4 if you wanted to, but MC5 requires stereo pairs like 1 and 2 or 3 and 4. but that's irrelevant and I'm rambling...
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Mark Viera
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Re:I need help with gain too high during recording in MC4
2010/11/13 09:34:18
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Thanks for all the advice: If the gain is bypassed by using “Insert I/O” that’s strange because I shouldn’t be able to use it to turn the volume up and I definitely can. For most of the drum mics the gain need to be all the way down and even that is not low enough. I can however rotate the gain clockwise and it will increase the recording level causing it to clip even more. The only reason I’m doing it that way is because I want to have control to mix the cymbals and snare volume after the other band members add there parts. That brings me to the second strange thing: The fact that I seem to get 4 separate simultaneously has come up before (http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=1867153&high= ). I’m not sure why it works. I’m using version 4.2.2. I have tested it and used this setup several times. I’m getting a new computer soon and I’m concerned that if I reinstall MC4 or upgrade to MC5 I will lose that ability since I shouldn’t have it in the first place. On the input of the Delta sound card there are three gain choices (see below). I’m already set to +4dB the lowest setting. Is there a different place to set input gain? +4dB Con -10dB
Mark My Setup: OS: Windows 7 64bit CPU: Xeon 2GHz Quad Core Hard drives: (2) 1TB and 500GB SATA 7200 RAM Memory: 4GB Sound Card: Delta 44 Music Creator 4 Mackie 802VLZ-3 Mixer Yamaha MG1604 Mixer (for Drum mix down) Mackie MR5 monitors
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Guitarhacker
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Re:I need help with gain too high during recording in MC4
2010/11/13 09:39:54
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Recording live drums can be a bit difficult. A compressor/limiter might be useful to help limit the peaks.....
The important thing is to set your levels based on the loudest section of music. Be sure it isn't clipping. It is always possible to raise the lower levels but impossible to un-clip a clipped part.
Adjust the levels on the mixer and most sound cards have a software mixer that allows adjustment of levels internal to the sound card. These are often over looked by many folks and are very important that they are set correctly.
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57Gregy
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Re:I need help with gain too high during recording in MC4
2010/11/13 10:55:11
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+4dB the lowest setting. Is there a different place to set input gain? +4dB Con -10dB Plus 4 is the highest setting, if that's what you're using. Start at -10.
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Mark Viera
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Re:I need help with gain too high during recording in MC4
2010/11/13 11:23:39
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Greg,
As strange as it sounds the -10dB setting makes it louder. Also on both my mixing boards (Mackie 802 and Yamaha MG 16/4) the gain nob is marked as +15dB being the lowest setting (turned counter clockwise) and -45dB the highest (turned clockwise). I just thought that’s how the terminology was.
Mark My Setup: OS: Windows 7 64bit CPU: Xeon 2GHz Quad Core Hard drives: (2) 1TB and 500GB SATA 7200 RAM Memory: 4GB Sound Card: Delta 44 Music Creator 4 Mackie 802VLZ-3 Mixer Yamaha MG1604 Mixer (for Drum mix down) Mackie MR5 monitors
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57Gregy
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Re:I need help with gain too high during recording in MC4
2010/11/13 11:38:24
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Ha! Made me look... I have a Yamaha mixer, too, and I never noticed that before. My gains go from +10 (-16) on the left to -34 (-60) on the right. Turning the gain knob "up" makes it go to the negative numerical value but makes it louder? What's up with that? Obviously a lack of knowledge on my part.  Edit: not enough coffee.
post edited by 57Gregy - 2010/11/13 11:56:27
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Beagle
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Re:I need help with gain too high during recording in MC4
2010/11/13 11:42:19
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that's odd.
everything about this is odd!
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Mark Viera
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Re:I need help with gain too high during recording in MC4
2010/11/13 12:18:28
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So, should I scrap trying to get the four tracks recorded at once? Is there a different way to accomplish the same thing by somehow sending the four different channels to different outputs of the mixer?
Mark My Setup: OS: Windows 7 64bit CPU: Xeon 2GHz Quad Core Hard drives: (2) 1TB and 500GB SATA 7200 RAM Memory: 4GB Sound Card: Delta 44 Music Creator 4 Mackie 802VLZ-3 Mixer Yamaha MG1604 Mixer (for Drum mix down) Mackie MR5 monitors
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Mark Viera
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Re:I need help with gain too high during recording in MC4
2010/11/13 14:20:43
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Ok, after reading the manual a bit more and doing some quick testing, I think I understand what RobertB was trying to tell me. When my son gets home later I will do a full test, but the settings below seem to work
Channel 1 Mixer (Kick drum) to Group one out, to Delta INS1
Channel 2 Mixer (Snare drum) to Group two out, to Delta INS3
Channel 3 Mixer (HiHat) to ST Left out to, Delta INS3
Channel 4-7 Mixer (all others) to ST right out to, Delta INS4
Mark My Setup: OS: Windows 7 64bit CPU: Xeon 2GHz Quad Core Hard drives: (2) 1TB and 500GB SATA 7200 RAM Memory: 4GB Sound Card: Delta 44 Music Creator 4 Mackie 802VLZ-3 Mixer Yamaha MG1604 Mixer (for Drum mix down) Mackie MR5 monitors
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57Gregy
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Re:I need help with gain too high during recording in MC4
2010/11/13 20:33:02
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Cool. Looks like you got that 1 in a million product that does more than it's supposed to.
Looks like you have the routing correct. Remember to record them as mono tracks in MC.
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Robomusic
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Re:I need help with gain too high during recording in MC4
2010/11/16 23:27:34
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The only problem I see with that setup is that if you use St L&R and Group L&R what do you monitor from? The way I use the Yamaha 16/4 is to send the stereo output to my monitor speakers, and the group out to my line in of my Delta 24/96. Then when you depress the 1/2 button for the channels being recorded it throws that to the stereo mix and you can hear all of the tracks in the headphones, or speakers. The way you are doing it there is no way to monitor from the mixer properly.
You will need to use the monitor mix setting in the Delta and monitor the mix from the software. So you need to send the mix from the Delta outs to the headphones or speakers. I am not sure that will work as well, but maybe.
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