MIDI recording problems - mastered tracks too low

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damoven
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2010/12/15 14:18:26 (permalink)

MIDI recording problems - mastered tracks too low

I have Cakewalk Music Maker 5, a Yamaha Clavinova CLP-130, and the M-Audio Fast Track Pro USB Interface.

I got Music Maker set up to record MIDI input from the Clavinova, via the Fast Track Pro. Once my tracks were recorded, I converted the MIDI clips to Wav, and then used Audacity to encode the wavs to MP3.

The problem is that when you play back the MP3s, they are EXTREMELY quiet. 

I know all about altering the velocity of the notes in Midi to give a volume increase but this isn't really working out, because it changes the characteristics of the piano playing. 

Is there something I am doing wrong with the MIDI input at recording time? 
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    Re:MIDI recording problems - mastered tracks too low 2010/12/15 14:50:04 (permalink)
    The problem is probably with your sound reproducing level, not your midi level. Could be in the process that you convert your midi clips to wave. If you are exporting to a wave file, and it doesn't render the volume that you are hearing back with, you may want to tab the option [What you hear].
    We could probably use a little more information c/o your conversion process.




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    damoven
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    Re:MIDI recording problems - mastered tracks too low 2010/12/15 15:05:25 (permalink)
    In order to create my music, I selected the Midi track in my file, and chose Export. I then chose to export as WAV but didn't choose any presets. The Wav files I produced contained the audio, but it was very low volume. I then used Audacity to convert the WAV files to MP3. I didn't do any other processing.

    I've just revisited the original WAV files and reprocessed them in Audacity - adding a 10db amplify - and I can now at least hear the tracks louder, but they are still too low. 

    I believe this may be an issue with the Clavinova and its midi controller. 

    I've tried rendering with "what you hear" and I DO get sound out, it's very very low... 
    post edited by damoven - 2010/12/15 15:13:24
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    Re:MIDI recording problems - mastered tracks too low 2010/12/15 15:28:00 (permalink)
    Sounds like the Track level is too low when rendering (Exporting) to a wave file. This requires you to figure out where in the signal line to adjust the level. Try adjusting the level at your Master Bus. What is the level at that Bus? You don't want your signal to go above the 0db level which will result in clipping, but you want it to run close so that your signal is well above the noise level.



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    RockingChair
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    Re:MIDI recording problems - mastered tracks too low 2010/12/15 15:51:35 (permalink)

      Just a thought, what are you listening to the .mp3's with? Have you checked the volume level on that software?

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    Guitarhacker
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    Re:MIDI recording problems - mastered tracks too low 2010/12/15 19:05:22 (permalink)
    You should be looking at the wave form in the MC track view. You can tell a great deal about the levels in that track view. If the wave looks like a straight line, it's a good bet that the input levels were low. Turn up the input and record it again.

    If on the other hand the wave looks huge in the track and parts are flat.... near the top & bottom, the levels are too high and you are clipping.

    You want to try for somewhere in the middle... there should be some head room at the top and bottom but not a huge amount.

    This is controversial to some folk, but...... here goes. If the wave form does not reach more than say 50% and you have a good signal going in, you can select the normalize function on the wave track. This brings the highest level in the wave to 100% or 0db and everything else is kept below that. I use this quite often.

    Also, after I export the file (finished) I open it in Wavepad (similar to audacity) where I trim the start & ends and also run the normalize again on the entire thing...again to bring it all up to that 0db peak level....

    Your waves should look like this>>>>  notice the peaks are very close to the limits...and the wave is fully formed and not wimpy. 


    The pic here of the waves looks a bit weak to me:

    I would likely either bump the gain a few db or normalize them especially if they were low in a normal mix.
     

    .


    post edited by Guitarhacker - 2010/12/15 19:09:22

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    #6
    damoven
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    Re:MIDI recording problems - mastered tracks too low 2010/12/15 19:15:10 (permalink)
    Thanks all for the advice. It seems that when I am playing back recorded midi from the Clavinova, it comes through at maybe 30% on the master output level indicator.


    I was able to get something at least partly passable by using Audacity to apply amplification to each wav before conversion to MP3. In Audacity, the waves were showing up as very close to zero and the amplification obviously gave them a needed boost. On listening back to the mastered CD in a player, the volume was much more reasonable and luckily did not distort the piano sound at all (that we could notice).

    However I am perplexed as to the problem with recording MIDI. I am aware that midi does not carry volume info as such; it carries velocity info as part of each note. I am starting to think it is the Yamaha Clavinova that is at fault here because whether I use Music Maker 5, or Ableton, or A-N-Other recording app, I always have the same problem with the midi being way too low, with no way to boost or normalise it, when it's been written. I think maybe the Clavinova passes velocities that are too low with each recorded note. That said, normalising the velocities after the event should give me a boost in volume? (even if it's not strictly the right way to get a volume boost)

    Perhaps somebody with a lot more knowledg & experience than me could look at one of my Cakewalk Music Maker 5 files containing some recorded midi information and see what you make of it? Is there any benefit to that? 
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    Guitarhacker
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    Re:MIDI recording problems - mastered tracks too low 2010/12/15 19:51:00 (permalink)
    I was recording some midi strings yesterday and the wave (after a bounce) looked like a straight line.... I soloed the track and I could hear the strings.... used  gain +6db and the line became a wave form and the strings were plenty loud now to use in the mix with the other instruments.

    No it's not likely the clavanova.... midi is just data, not audio music... so bounce the tracks and normalize them....see how that does for you.   Also be sure the faders on BOTH the midi and the audio synth track are UP when you bounce, especially if you use WHAT YOU HEAR.

    I often have problems hearing a default synth when it's first set up. Many of the synths I use have internal volume controls for output and I can always get enough volume to hear the tracks that way.

    What synth are you using?

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    #8
    57Gregy
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    Re:MIDI recording problems - mastered tracks too low 2010/12/15 23:16:04 (permalink)
    " I converted the MIDI clips to Wav"
     
    "I selected the Midi track in my file, and chose Export. I then chose to export as WAV but didn't choose any presets."
     
    Are you using Music Maker of Music Creator? This is the Music Creator forum.
    I don't think you can click on a MIDI file and render it to audio in Music Creator without using a software synthesizer, nor is there an 'export as WAV' unless MC 5 is way more advanced than MC Pro 24 (my most recent version).

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    #9
    Beagle
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    Re:MIDI recording problems - mastered tracks too low 2010/12/16 08:53:20 (permalink)
    I don't see where you say HOW you're converting MIDI to WAVE.  you mentioned that you do that in your first post, but what is the OUTPUT of the MIDI tracks?  are you sending it back to the clavinova and recording an audio input?  or are you using a softsynth?  if so, which one?  if neither - what is the output of your MIDI tracks?

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    Re:MIDI recording problems - mastered tracks too low 2010/12/16 09:32:20 (permalink)
    As Beagle mentioned and as I asked before,

    We could probably use a little more information c/o your conversion process.


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