Adji
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Master Bus Peak Level?
This is something I have been thinking about recently.
Generally I leave about 5 decibels of clean headroom on the master bus so my peaking is at around -5.
Is this still too high? Should I be aiming for around -10 or even lower? Obviously the lower you you go the more you can crank it in the mastering stage, but I'm not sure what to make of it.
Any ideas / opinions?
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Norrie
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Re:Master Bus Peak Level?
2011/01/11 19:22:36
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From what ive heard and talked about in past posts in the past mixing to -10 / -12 is a good level and then bring it up from there :)
I wouldnt take my word for it though but ive found its been working well for me I aim for -12
Norrie
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bitflipper
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Re:Master Bus Peak Level?
2011/01/12 08:06:21
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Depends on whether you or someone else will be mastering the song later on, or if you're going for a finished product within the project.
If it will be mastered later, 5db is about the minimum headroom you'd want to leave. 8 to 12db would be better.
If you're mastering it in place, perhaps preparing for MP3 distribution, then you can bring it up to between 1 and 3db of full scale. I would not go above 1db, and if the ultimate target is an MP3, 2 or 3db is preferable.
These are peak levels, of course. RMS is a whole 'nother topic.
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Truckermusic
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Re:Master Bus Peak Level?
2011/01/12 08:19:07
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bitflipper
Depends on whether you or someone else will be mastering the song later on, or if you're going for a finished product within the project.
If it will be mastered later, 5db is about the minimum headroom you'd want to leave. 8 to 12db would be better.
If you're mastering it in place, perhaps preparing for MP3 distribution, then you can bring it up to between 1 and 3db of full scale. I would not go above 1db, and if the ultimate target is an MP3, 2 or 3db is preferable.
These are peak levels, of course. RMS is a whole 'nother topic.
Bit I'm going to ask a stupid question here........one that I should already know the answer to but do not... I have seen the terms "Peak" and "RMS" around for a long time now... but I truly do not know what they mean.... Peak I understand as when the sound jumps or really spikes is a better term for an instant an hits a higher level RMS I am assuming as a sonstant sound level. am I correct or is there more to this story that I am missing? Clifford
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Guitarhacker
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Re:Master Bus Peak Level?
2011/01/12 09:05:09
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Cliff.... a layman's explanation.
Think about a wave.... (like water..or in this case, sound, in the form of electrical signals) The peak is the highest point the wave will ever reach... or in real time, the highest point of the wave. It's very fast... then gone. Over time there is an average that develops but it's not a linear average. ( not 0 min / 50 max= 25avg... it doesn't work that easy unfortunately)
RMS= Root mean square.... basically it means the effective (power) level of the wave over time.
Example: we say (in the USA) that the electrical voltage in the wall sockets is 120V (AC). That is basically equal to a DC voltage of 120VDC as to it's potential.
However, since it is AC alternating current, and is a wave... the average effective is 120 BUT the peak of the wave is about 170vac. If you dig into the math behind this, it is fascinating, and will actually help you understand it better.
So a 170VAC peak wave will do about the equivalent work of a constant 120VDC....
hope this helps.
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AT
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Re:Master Bus Peak Level?
2011/01/12 11:07:16
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It depends. If you are sending it out to be mastered leaving more headroom (-12 dB) is better. If you are doing it at home you can leave less. An outside house is likely to have better equipment so let them use what you are paying for. If you are doing the mastering yourself it is probably better to use less of what you have twice (mixing and then mastering). It will be easier to get a smooth sound that way.
It also depends upon the music, tho the above principal hold. Rock n roll is easy to push closer to 0 dB than acoustic stuff. I did a version of "God bless the child" demo for some friends - voice and guitar. I tried to get the volume up w/ hardware on this dynamic piece. I used a comp followed by limiter pair. However, the singer gets very powerful at the end and I missed the fact that the hardware put a little distortion hair when she really pushed it at the end. Such would have been great in r&R - on a nakid billie holiday not so much. So for a quikie fix I went back to Voxengo's Elephant, didn't push it to -.1 and it sounded great. Not the RMS like the hardware but no hair, niether. A R&R (or any thick style) song can more easily be mastered close to radio ready levels than "softer", more open songs.
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Adji
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Re:Master Bus Peak Level?
2011/01/13 06:20:50
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Thanks very much guys, I will try to leave around 10 db of headroom from now on.
Thanks for the explanations on RMS and Peak, this has confused me too, I always thought RMS was a kind of average?
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Guitarhacker
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Re:Master Bus Peak Level?
2011/01/13 08:46:08
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Adji
Thanks for the explanations on RMS and Peak, this has confused me too, I always thought RMS was a kind of average?
People call it an average but that's not exactly right.... digging into the math will explain it. START HERE ALSO: http://www.practicalphysi..rg/go/Guidance_107.html http://www.bcae1.com/voltages.htm It gets deep pretty quick. A good understanding of Algebra and Trig really helps. I remember studying all this mess when I was taking a course in electronics theory. We spent half the day doing math, and the rest in electronics lab playing with circuits.
post edited by Guitarhacker - 2011/01/13 08:53:52
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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Adji
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Re:Master Bus Peak Level?
2011/01/13 08:53:37
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Thanks dude. That looks all to technical for my simple brain, but I'll take a read through.
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Truckermusic
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Re:Master Bus Peak Level?
2011/01/13 11:07:26
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 Guitarhacker
Adji
Thanks for the explanations on RMS and Peak, this has confused me too, I always thought RMS was a kind of average?
People call it an average but that's not exactly right.... digging into the math will explain it. START HERE
ALSO:
http://www.practicalphysics.org/go/Guidance_107.html
http://www.bcae1.com/voltages.htm
It gets deep pretty quick. A good understanding of Algebra and Trig really helps. I remember studying all this mess when I was taking a course in electronics theory. We spent half the day doing math, and the rest in electronics lab playing with circuits.
Well Ok thien......I can now add on another hat to my list of half baked accomplishments in life! Herb....Man i had a hard time in math.....you know and it is so funny cause I am in charge of these big budgets at work and run Excel all day etc........ Numbers confuse me.....I have a hard time just counting to four! but thank you for the explination and the reading material......I will endeavor to get thru it..... and thiank you for your help all the time.....very much appreciated! Clifford
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Rothchild
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Re:Master Bus Peak Level?
2011/01/13 11:56:09
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There's some really good (and possibly more relevant than you might expect!) info in this thread: http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=2161146 I think what's important is that you establish a standard for yourself (or, as I've done, borrow one from someone who knows better!) What's becoming clear to me is that maintining a decent amount of headroom for yourself and the ME will deliver better results. Child
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Guitarhacker
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Re:Master Bus Peak Level?
2011/01/13 12:02:39
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Cliff..
I am not very good with math.... I love calculators and use them to add the most simple numbers together.
In school, I barely passed the required math courses. After getting out of the military, and enrolling in a tech college to avoid having to go to work.... I took electronics and then electricity. In the electronics course, the instructor, on the first day told us to get a good scientific calculator. He didn't care about the math.... we would work with formulas, and as long as you understood the formulas and the relationship of the parts, do the math any way you wanted as long as it was fast and accurate.
There was actually a guy in that class, from Jamacia.... this cat was unbelieveable.... alomst "savant-like" in his ability to calculate math in his head or with a pencil and pad.... stuff like 23,000,000 x -.0000000062.... unbelievable math wizz. He was as fast as us on calculators....
Now days, I don't use that sort of math.... mainly just adding and subtracting numbers for record keeping, and the occasional DC ohms law calculations
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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