44 16

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kmsomethingmore
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2011/01/16 03:35:53 (permalink)

44 16

Hi all,
 
I am currently recording in Sonar at 44 16.....big mistake?  Thoughts?  I use a lot of band in a box real tracks, wavs.  I make em in B ina box, then open them in Sonar (they are likely 44 16 I think).  Should I be bothering to record at a higher than 44 16, if so which?  Will I hurt my BIAB real tracks if I bump it up a notch for the project, vocals, etc??  Once I mixdown, doesn't it all get shoved to 44 16 for CD anyway?  I know there's likely more info out there on this in threads, please advise where, and sorry to post a question that's likely been answered to death.  Thanks, I look forward to your answers.  THanks again.
 
Kevin
 
 
#1

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    Kalle Rantaaho
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    Re:44 16 2011/01/16 05:13:10 (permalink)
    24 bit depth is better in recording, using it you don't need to record so hot. Just remember to dither it down to 16 when exporting the final mix.

    I don't actually know if this affects the BiaB files in any way. If you're only doing MIDI (no vocals or other audio) you can as well stay with 44,1 Khz/16 bit.

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    #2
    kmsomethingmore
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    Re:44 16 2011/01/17 12:45:22 (permalink)
    Thanks,
    Hmmm, so I have this song I am working on, can I make the switch now to 44, 24bit without messing anything up?  But I have to re do my vocal I suspect.
    So stay with 44.1 though right? or 48?  I notice my DSP software is set to 44.1, that's for my EMU 1616m unit, I see I can switch it to 48 if I want to.  Thanks for the insights.
     
    Kalle Rantaaho


    24 bit depth is better in recording, using it you don't need to record so hot. Just remember to dither it down to 16 when exporting the final mix.

    I don't actually know if this affects the BiaB files in any way. If you're only doing MIDI (no vocals or other audio) you can as well stay with 44,1 Khz/16 bit.


    #3
    kmsomethingmore
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    Re:44 16 2011/01/17 12:47:30 (permalink)
    I don't use midi at the moment I should have said too.  I make WAVS in BIAB and import them into my Sonar project.  So I am assuming they are coming in at 16bit, Should I select 24 at the import screen?  I think you can.  Though if it's 16 I am sure it will stay 16?  tks.
     
    kmsomethingmore


    Thanks,
    Hmmm, so I have this song I am working on, can I make the switch now to 44, 24bit without messing anything up?  But I have to re do my vocal I suspect.
    So stay with 44.1 though right? or 48?  I notice my DSP software is set to 44.1, that's for my EMU 1616m unit, I see I can switch it to 48 if I want to.  Thanks for the insights.
     
    Kalle Rantaaho


    24 bit depth is better in recording, using it you don't need to record so hot. Just remember to dither it down to 16 when exporting the final mix.

    I don't actually know if this affects the BiaB files in any way. If you're only doing MIDI (no vocals or other audio) you can as well stay with 44,1 Khz/16 bit.



    #4
    Guitarhacker
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    Re:44 16 2011/01/17 14:42:58 (permalink)
    I record audio at 24 bits in MC4. You can import any 24 or 16 bit file. Exporting the project to a wave, you will want to use 44.1/16 as the settings for CD burning.

    I think BB allows 16 and 24 bit exports so go with 24.... it won't hurt a thing.

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    #5
    kmsomethingmore
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    Re:44 16 2011/01/17 15:32:08 (permalink)
    so stay with the 44.1 setting all the time? 
    #6
    codamedia
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    Re:44 16 2011/01/17 16:11:52 (permalink)
    kmsomethingmore


    so stay with the 44.1 setting all the time? 

    It's not that easy :)  Higher settings will provide better headroom and definition in your recordings. Usually users that record 24 bit are using 48k, but not always. You need to weigh the pros and cons for your own situation. Is this nothing more than hobby, for your own enjoyment? If so, 44.1/16 is absolutely fine. If you need to present a mixdown for mastering before it heads to a CD plant - you may want to consider 48/24.
     
    When recording at higher rates, keep the following in mind:
     
    1: You will use more disk space.
    2: You will need to dither it down to 44.1/16 before burning a CD. (a std red book CD)
     
     

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    #7
    mattplaysguitar
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    Re:44 16 2011/01/17 18:27:47 (permalink)
    There is a huge debate that will never end over 44.1 vs 48 vs 96. Some say it all sounds the same, some say 96 just sounds heaps better. I have seen tests which show people can't pick the difference, and some that show people can. In the end, it is a SMALL difference compared to pretty much everything else you can do. So if you really aren't sure or can't hear any difference in your tests, just use 44.1 and save some cpu power and disk space.

    16 vs 24? 24 bits always wins. You get more DIGITAL headroom at 24, but with cheap gear, the headroom in your equipment may not allow you much benefit over 16 bit. Still use 24 anyway, but just don't assume you then have endless headroom, because your gear noise will impact. The high noisefloor with 16 bit tends to become noticeable after compression of tracks and the song. You might not really hear it at first in the recording. To put it in perspective though, I accidentally recorded a song of mine in 16 bit and did not notice I did so till about a year after the recording. Only then did I notice the noisefloor and realise it needs to be re-recorded! (or does it really, if I never even noticed till I saw the numbers on the bottom of sonar)... You can find the song on my website if you would like to listen to the noisefloor. It was done on decent, but budget gear. 24 bits would have been better, but it goes to show how much you can get away with it.

    You mentioned "doesn't it all get converted back to 44 16 anyway?" I touched on this in the pragraph above, it's because at 24 bit, you have more headroom which allows you to apply more compression before the noisefloor increases and becomes noticeable. As has already been mentioned, at 24 bit you can bring your preamps down a little to reduce the risk of clipping. But be warned that bringing it down too much will start to expose the noisefloor of your gear. So there is still a definite compromise. 24 gives you a bit more room with cheap (noisy) gear, and a lot more room with expensive (quiet) gear.

    This post is all over the place, but in summary, 24 bit gives you a) more headroom recording reducing the risk of clipping or the need for compressors, and b) more headroom once recorded to compress your tracks as much as you desire.


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    #8
    kmsomethingmore
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    Re:44 16 2011/01/18 00:30:46 (permalink)
    Is 44/24 okay then?  If I change the setting now from 16 to 24 will that affect my project any, or just future recording in that same project?  I don't seem to see where BIABox will export 24bit wavs, but maybe I just didn't find it yet.  When you import audio into Sonar I think it asks about bit depth, change you technically make 16 into 24bit at this process?  Likely not eh!?  Thanks, I am learning lots.
    Kevin
     
     
    mattplaysguitar


    There is a huge debate that will never end over 44.1 vs 48 vs 96. Some say it all sounds the same, some say 96 just sounds heaps better. I have seen tests which show people can't pick the difference, and some that show people can. In the end, it is a SMALL difference compared to pretty much everything else you can do. So if you really aren't sure or can't hear any difference in your tests, just use 44.1 and save some cpu power and disk space.

    16 vs 24? 24 bits always wins. You get more DIGITAL headroom at 24, but with cheap gear, the headroom in your equipment may not allow you much benefit over 16 bit. Still use 24 anyway, but just don't assume you then have endless headroom, because your gear noise will impact. The high noisefloor with 16 bit tends to become noticeable after compression of tracks and the song. You might not really hear it at first in the recording. To put it in perspective though, I accidentally recorded a song of mine in 16 bit and did not notice I did so till about a year after the recording. Only then did I notice the noisefloor and realise it needs to be re-recorded! (or does it really, if I never even noticed till I saw the numbers on the bottom of sonar)... You can find the song on my website if you would like to listen to the noisefloor. It was done on decent, but budget gear. 24 bits would have been better, but it goes to show how much you can get away with it.

    You mentioned "doesn't it all get converted back to 44 16 anyway?" I touched on this in the pragraph above, it's because at 24 bit, you have more headroom which allows you to apply more compression before the noisefloor increases and becomes noticeable. As has already been mentioned, at 24 bit you can bring your preamps down a little to reduce the risk of clipping. But be warned that bringing it down too much will start to expose the noisefloor of your gear. So there is still a definite compromise. 24 gives you a bit more room with cheap (noisy) gear, and a lot more room with expensive (quiet) gear.

    This post is all over the place, but in summary, 24 bit gives you a) more headroom recording reducing the risk of clipping or the need for compressors, and b) more headroom once recorded to compress your tracks as much as you desire.


    #9
    Zuma
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    Re:44 16 2011/01/18 00:46:28 (permalink)
    There is an audible difference but it is subtle and most people are too focused on volume or loudness to catch it. For instance, the sound of a finger squeak on a fret will be clearer and more audible, especially at lower volumes, on a 24/96 file than a 16/44.1 file. The music has more presence and resolution becuase you are capturing more detail for lack of a better word.  Again, it's subtle, but it's there IMO. I tend to stay out of these threads now because people like to throw around the  "golden eared snob" insult and it always devolves from there.

    I am leary of those test sites too. The test is easy enough to do yourself by recording the same source at different sample rates. If the noise floor is being raised then more of what you couldn't hear before is going to be pushed into range so to speak. Nay sayers toss around psychoacoustics too, but this is exactly what also comes into play on the test sites themselves.You're not just comparing two files but listening and comparing multiple files... too easy to get fatigued no matter how objective you try to be. The best way to tell the difference is actually by listening to the files at very low volume. I've seen a few people eat crow by doing this. If you're cranking up the volume though, you'll never catch the added subtle details.

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    #10
    mattplaysguitar
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    Re:44 16 2011/01/18 03:22:01 (permalink)
    Yeah 44/24 is fine to record with. You can change in the middle of a project and it will only change the new files you record. Won't hurt at all (changing sample rate is only per project, however - so you need to start a new one for that). You will eventually dither and convert it back down to 16 for distribution, but after all your compression and processing, so you get the main benefits out of it. When you import files into sonar, it usually imports them at whatever bit depth they are at originally. Just leave the settings at that. It's all you need. There is no point changing a 16 bit file that you import into sonar to a 24 bit file. The 16 bit noisefloor will still be in the 24 bit file. The 24 bit will just take up more space for zero benefit.

    Also, when quoting posts, try using the 'outdent' button (the blue arrow in the black lines pointing to the left) for the text you are writing so it doesn't treat it as a quote. This will make finding your comments easier! To ensure it is correct, make sure you outdent your comments so they are hard against the left of the text box. You can preview your post to make sure it's correct.


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    #11
    Guitarhacker
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    Re:44 16 2011/01/18 08:36:33 (permalink)
    KM...all this is true about the 44.1/16 debate.... BUT.... going back to your original post, discussing BB tracks. Unless you have the audiophile version of BB you are not working with  wave files to begin with. It's my understanding that the tracks in ALL BB versions are WMA files and get converted to waves upon export from BB which means they're better than MP3 but less then a true wave. The audiophile version works with waves, the rest do not.

    here's what the PG website says about this:

    173. Can the RealTracks WMA files be converted to WAV files, and are these the same WAV files that are shipped with the AudioPhile version?


    No, you cannot convert the wma files included in most Band-in-a-Box packages to the wave files included in the AudioPhile packages.
    Converting the compressed .WMA files to .WAV files IS possible by using the Install button in the RealTracks or RealDrums Settings dialog. This can improve the RealTracks generation speed a little, however it is not recommended that you do this for the entire RealTracks folder due to the large amount of disk space this requires (about 10 times more space than the .WMA's). The sound quality will be exactly the same as if you were using the .wma files, since audio data has already been lost by compressing the wma's in the first place. On the other hand, the AudioPhile wave files have never been compressed.




    SO...based on what PG says,  set your default settings in the DAW to 44.1/24 for recording, and select 44.1/16 for export to CD or WAVE. Recording higher resolution will NOT give you better quality music since you are limited by the weak link in the chain, the WMA files.

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