dud23
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Timing question.
I searched and couldnt find an answer to this, im a beginner so im sure its a dumb question. But, i use session drummer 3 to do my drums, then i try to go back with dimension or another soft synth and record it. It sounds perfect as i do it, exactly spot on. but then when i playback it is always off just a little, the exact same amount in every song, so i have to go back through and correct it by dragging the notes to the correct timing. I use an edirol pcr-300 and an m audio fast track pro. know why it happens and how do i fix it?
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CJaysMusic
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Re:Timing question.
2011/01/18 15:43:25
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Whats are your sound card settings, as this may have soemthnig to do with it. Also note if your using the latest maudio drivers and if your using usb for the midi keyboard
Cj
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bitflipper
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Re:Timing question.
2011/01/18 20:37:23
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There is always a delay when you record something. SONAR mostly deals with this automatically by nudging the recorded audio to compensate, but it can't always get it spot on due to unreported or inaccurately reported latency factors. To deal with this situation, SONAR gives you a place to manually enter an additional offset value so that your recordings are right in time.
Go to Options -> Audio -> Advanced. At the bottom you'll see a box labeled "Manual Offset". This is where you'll type in the needed offset value (in samples). You can start by estimating the needed correction value, and you'll hear an improvement right away. But the more precise method is to use a loopback connection, sending a test tone out your interface and looping it back in for recording. Then you can find out exactly what offset you need to enter. (Tip: right-click on the elapsed time counter and select "samples" rather than H:M:S; this will help you figure out the number samples you had to slide your clip over by to line it up)
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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CJaysMusic
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Re:Timing question.
2011/01/18 21:15:38
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You should not have to mess with the manual offset, unless something is wrong with your set-up. I would figure out whats wrong with your system first. Then if you want to apply a band aid, then go right ahead
Cj
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dud23
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Re:Timing question.
2011/02/15 15:36:20
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thanks for the advice!!!! got it figured out
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CJaysMusic
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Re:Timing question.
2011/02/16 16:05:18
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lfm
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Re:Timing question.
2011/02/17 03:36:42
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dud23
I searched and couldnt find an answer to this, im a beginner so im sure its a dumb question. But, i use session drummer 3 to do my drums, then i try to go back with dimension or another soft synth and record it. It sounds perfect as i do it, exactly spot on. but then when i playback it is always off just a little, the exact same amount in every song, so i have to go back through and correct it by dragging the notes to the correct timing. I use an edirol pcr-300 and an m audio fast track pro. know why it happens and how do i fix it?
It could be that Sonar is not compensating midi recording with delay compensation as it does with audio recordings.
Anyway, if midi is off recording a second round of midi listening to another generally easiest thing to do is adjust clip with midi ticks on the track. Going into adjusting individual notes is never necessary, unless poor playing of course. Sounds like a weak spot in how Sonar handles recordings with midi.
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Timing question.
2011/02/17 04:08:06
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I use quite a lot of external hardware as well as virtual instruments and I can say for sure that Sonar definately does not handle midi timing as well as other DAW's especially if there is a lot of audio processing involved. This is one the reasons I am so keen on Presonus Studio One. The midi timing is rock solid no matter what is going on and it totally and faithfully plays back (especially unquantised data) midi data timing to perfection. I am a drummer and I can hear it quite obviously. I am over sensitive to it. It is not a major thing we are talking here, but to me, noticable. Midi tracks (external that is) should require no offsets or any adjustments at all as in S1. They should just play it back perfectly as it goes in. (unquantised) and if you do quantise, it is rock solid to the metronome. Of course you can still offset midi clips forward or behind in time if you want but that is a different story. Midi timing with virtual instruments is another matter because they are using the audio channels and processing. But I have found S1 midi timing to also be very accurate even with virtual instruments too. I am not sure what is going on there in Sonar or wether they intend to fix it at some stage because it is quite hard to pin down and very subtle at times. And sometimes Sonar sounds great too midi timing wise so its not all bad either.
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2011/02/17 04:11:34
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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lfm
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Re:Timing question.
2011/02/17 09:11:08
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Jeff Evans
I use quite a lot of external hardware as well as virtual instruments and I can say for sure that Sonar definately does not handle midi timing as well as other DAW's especially if there is a lot of audio processing involved. This is one the reasons I am so keen on Presonus Studio One. The midi timing is rock solid no matter what is going on and it totally and faithfully plays back (especially unquantised data) midi data timing to perfection. I am a drummer and I can hear it quite obviously. I am over sensitive to it. It is not a major thing we are talking here, but to me, noticable.
Midi tracks (external that is) should require no offsets or any adjustments at all as in S1. They should just play it back perfectly as it goes in. (unquantised) and if you do quantise, it is rock solid to the metronome. Of course you can still offset midi clips forward or behind in time if you want but that is a different story. Midi timing with virtual instruments is another matter because they are using the audio channels and processing. But I have found S1 midi timing to also be very accurate even with virtual instruments too.
I am not sure what is going on there in Sonar or wether they intend to fix it at some stage because it is quite hard to pin down and very subtle at times. And sometimes Sonar sounds great too midi timing wise so its not all bad either.
Thanks, interesting to know. I was looking at S1 this summer when they had an offer until last of June. I have other doubts about Sonar too that I put here on forum this summer, whether tracks are adjusted in time if recording and some overall delay compensation is there. I mean they should be, not only DC for playback syncing of tracks.
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brundlefly
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Re:Timing question.
2011/02/17 12:10:02
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Jeff Evans
I use quite a lot of external hardware as well as virtual instruments and I can say for sure that Sonar definately does not handle midi timing as well as other DAW's especially if there is a lot of audio processing involved. This is one the reasons I am so keen on Presonus Studio One. The midi timing is rock solid no matter what is going on and it totally and faithfully plays back (especially unquantised data) midi data timing to perfection. I am a drummer and I can hear it quite obviously. I am over sensitive to it. It is not a major thing we are talking here, but to me, noticable. That's interesting, Jeff. I gave up on Studio One for the time being because it adds 11ms of transmission delay to input-echoed MIDI on top of the normal 2-3ms hardware delay on my system. The added latency is noticeable when playing keyboards by echoed MIDI vs. Local Control. And when I record "simultaneous" MIDI and audio, the audio is placed late by that amount compared to the MIDI though the audio latency compensation is set identical to SONAR, and seems to be working correctly. Also, a round trip test of Studio One re-recording its own MIDI output exhibits the same delay. I originally observed this with the S1 Demo I downloaded last June, but it persists into the latest version of Artist that I bought during NAMM. I haven't bothered to pursue a solution because Studio One has too many other feature deficits/differences for me to seriously consider migrating right now. But I'd be interested to see if you or or anyone else here that has Studio One can confirm or refute this. SONAR adds almost nothing to the hardware delay, even when playing and recording MIDI driven synths with a project driving my CPU at 50+%. MIDI round-trip averages about 2.6ms on my system. There are many possible configuration and hardware issues that could explain the problem described by the OP. There's nothing inherently wrong with SONAR's MIDI timing performance, though there could be an interoperability issue with certain interfaces. In fact, I upgraded to the E-MU 1820m PCI interface from an M-Audio Omnistudio USB precisely because the two didn't play well together in this regard. It could be my own problem with Studio One is the same thing: an interoperability problem with this particular combination of hardware, software and O/S.
post edited by brundlefly - 2011/02/17 12:11:59
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Timing question.
2011/02/17 14:41:05
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Hi brundlefly that is all interesting too. I should ask what MIDI interface are you using. I assume you are using the midi interface built in to the 1820.
I use a Emagic Unitor 8 interface because it has 8 midi ports. I have 6 external synths and put them each on their own port. Another port I use for my digital mixer. The Unitor 8 uses the serial port on the computer. (9 pin connector) I know not many things these days use the serial port for anything. Maybe this is why I am getting such great midi timing on S1 compared to you perhaps. The serial port may be good because it is not involved with anything eg PCI buss or the USB buss so midi timing may be totally isolated and never gets changed or moved etc.
Sonar might really like using the PCI buss for MIDI in your case. I have not tried that. But I do prefer seperate midi ports as the timing is soild between them and independant for each port. You must be using several synths on one midi port whereas I have got each synth on its own port. But even if I am just using one synth I steel feel timing is better under S1.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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brundlefly
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Re:Timing question.
2011/02/17 15:12:13
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assume you are using the midi interface built in to the 1820. Yes, I am using the MIDI ports on the 1820m; it has two pairs. I also have a MOTU MIDI Express XT that I have not been using for some time, and a Behringer BCF2000 with aux MIDI ports. They are both USB, and are just hair slower than the PCI interface on the round-trip test. I'll try one of them with S1 and see what I get. I'll be really surprised if there's a difference between them and the E-MU. But I'd really like to see you do the simultaneous MIDI and Audio sync and MIDI RTL tests with both SONAR and Studio One, and report your results numerically. Just make sure the audio latency compensation is the same for both, and any MIDI Timing Offset is disabled.
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brundlefly
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Re:Timing question.
2011/02/17 21:11:01
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Jeff, I retested Studio One using the BCF2000 USB MIDI ports, and got about the same result: 13ms round-trip. If you know of any S1 tweaks that might have a bearing on this, I'm all ears. I sure would like to see someone else's results, though. Maybe I'll ping Billy.
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Timing question.
2011/02/17 21:22:27
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Hey Brundlefly I hope I don't sound too stupid here but how do you do the MIDI RTL test? I know how how to do the audio one but not sure about the midi situation. Is there a program that does it etc..
Also I am not sure that test might reveal what I am talking about either because what I hear sometimes with Sonar is the groove of say a keyboard part gets messed up a bit but in S1 it does not. So this is implying that some notes maybe get moved and others don't. It might not just be a simple matter of doing a RTL test and adjusting the compensation etc. It might not be a constant.
Anyway I am still happy to try any test you might suggest though.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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johnnyV
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Re:Timing question.
2011/02/17 21:31:31
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but how do you do the MIDI RTL test? I know how how to do the audio one but not sure about the midi
Excellent question, I hope he answers!
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brundlefly
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Re:Timing question.
2011/02/17 22:44:43
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johnnyV
but how do you do the MIDI RTL test? I know how how to do the audio one but not sure about the midi
Excellent question, I hope he answers!
You do a MIDI round-trip test the same wasy you do audio: run a MIDI cable from an Out to an In, and re-record an existing MIDI track playing back. Then zoom in and look at the delta in start time between corresponding events in the two tracks. This will reveal both fixed transmission delays and variation (a.k.a. jitter). If you have a hardware synth, you can add that to the loop, and record it.s output so you have an audio timing reference as well. Or you can record simultaneous audio and MIDI from a keyboard both with local control and with input echoed MIDI and compare the two results. If you have your audio latency compensation dialed in, you can conclude that any delta is due to MIDI transmission synth response delays. Some synths have really good response on the order of 1ms, but some can be upwards of 6ms, so you need to be aware of that as well. But with local control, the synth response should be on the order of 1ms.
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bitflipper
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Re:Timing question.
2011/02/17 22:49:40
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I have never had an issue with MIDI events not being in the right place after recording, but I have always had to use the manual offset when recording hardware synths' audio when driven from a MIDI track. However, the required offset value is consistent and the resultant audio is always smack on. Soft synths always line up precisely with no fiddling. I record MIDI over Firewire via the MIDI port on a MOTU 828MkII. OTOH, when I've used a USB connection for MIDI there was inconsistent jitter. Maybe it's a USB problem. I'd be curious to know if there is any correlation between users who do or don't have MIDI timing issues and whether they record over USB versus Firewire. As for Studio One, it really is very good. Every feature is well thought out. But they'll have to implement multi-track MIDI editing (and a freeze function) before I'll consider switching. Here's one way to measure MIDI round-trip latency. What I do is simpler: manually insert a short MIDI event into a track, hard-quantized to a measure, route it to an external synth, choose a patch with a sharp attack and record the audio. Set the grid to snap to the measure and line up the Now marker with the MIDI note in the PRV. Set the Time display to show samples, and note its value. Zoom in on the audio and set the Now marker to the leading edge of the first sample. Subtract the Time from the MIDI time and you know exactly how many samples of latency there was. Multiply by 0.0227 to convert to milliseconds (assuming 44.1KHz).
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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SONARtist
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Re:Timing question.
2011/04/18 19:34:47
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Edit: Non-relevant comment ... apologies.
post edited by SONARtist - 2011/04/18 19:40:12
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