What Sample Rate? 64-bit Double Precision Engine?

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TomFerraro
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2011/01/22 10:41:28 (permalink)

What Sample Rate? 64-bit Double Precision Engine?

Curious to learn what sample rate you veterans use, and tips you might have in choosing one.
 
I'm mainly producing electronica, with a few recorded but heavily processed tracks.  The balance of the audio tracks are VST Synths and loops. 
 
I've used 44100 Hz for many years now because of restricted hard drive space; storage space is no longer an issue.
 
In addition to sample rate, there is an Audio Driver Setting option for  use "64-bit Double Precision Engine".  the help file doesn't go into much detail on the benefits or for selecting, any insights?

Thanks all
 
Tom
 

SONAR X1- Producer, Komplete 7, V-Studio-100, i7-950
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17 Replies Related Threads

    siris1977
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    Re:What Sample Rate? 64-bit Double Precision Engine? 2011/01/22 11:35:40 (permalink)
    I'm reinstallng X1 now so I don't have it up yet to find exactly where it is  but  hit "p"   and look around in audio  you might have to hit the advanced tab but its in the pref. box somewhere I'm pretty sure. and the audio engine of corse is on the control bar.   
     

     
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    #2
    Frank Haas
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    Re:What Sample Rate? 64-bit Double Precision Engine? 2011/01/22 12:10:06 (permalink)
    samplerate..
    most of us believe it's best to choose the samplerate to match the target media..
    Audio CD: 44.1 kHz
    VideoDVD:48 KHz
    DVD Audio: 96 KHz
    you can use a samplerate with a multiplier of "2",.. f.e. for a standard audio-cd: 88.2KHz,.. (24bit).. that will give you the highest quality and when you downsample it to 44.1KHz again you don't have to bother with roundingerrors..

    I use my AxeFx on the S/PDIF-input of my RME FF800,.. I am forced to use 48KHz in that combination or it will not sync up properly..
    so you see,.. there are pretty straight up "rules",.. and sometimes it's just the equipment that limits you in choosing the correct samplerate.

    I rarely use the 64-bit double precision engine.. my daw can't handle that too well on heavy projects.. and I haven't seen/heard a difference anyway.
    #3
    vespesian
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    Re:What Sample Rate? 64-bit Double Precision Engine? 2011/01/22 12:28:14 (permalink)
    I honestly cannot tell the difference with the '64-bit' on or off, soundwise - it's supposed to improve the quality of some high freq. sounds like in a reverb, if I remember correctly....but it doesn't play nice with a fair number of plug-ins (PSP products, for example).

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    CJaysMusic
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    Re:What Sample Rate? 64-bit Double Precision Engine? 2011/01/22 12:31:19 (permalink)
    The 64bit engine is a internal  processing engine. You can use it with any sample rate and and any bit rate (16 or 24 bit)
    44.1kHz is good enough, as thats CD quality.

    I suggest using 24bit and 44.1kHz with the 64bit internal engine on. If your pc gives you problems with the 64bit engine on, just turn it on when bouncing and exporting and you will get 100% of the benefits of it.
    Cj

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    emwhy
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    Re:What Sample Rate? 64-bit Double Precision Engine? 2011/01/22 13:17:17 (permalink)
    +1 on CJ's suggestion. I can understand why people record at high sample rates, but the bottom line is sooner or later you're going to have to get it down to 44.1

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    DonaldDuck
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    Re:What Sample Rate? 64-bit Double Precision Engine? 2011/01/23 06:33:22 (permalink)
    Most studios that I've been in in LA, NYC, and Nashville record at 96k.  With processing power, RAM, HD Space, etc.. all increasing by leaps and bounds, recording at 96k isn't a big deal.  I moved from 48K to 96K last year, and I'll continue to do so.  The lower the sample rate, more more data of your performance that is disappearing forever.  Is there an audible difference?  This is a loaded question.  It depends on many factors.  If you have a low end converter, there probably isn' t much benefit.  Many high end converters DO sound different at different rates.  Not better or worse.. but different.  In fact, one of my fav external reverbs downsamples to 40k for a unique sound. 

    Another thing to take into consideration is that everyone's ears (and brains) are different.  Some of the old studio cats in the major cities can hear a recording and actually tell the frequencies that need cuts ot boosts.  They've been doing it so long that they just know.  I have really good ears from 3 years of college level ear training.  I can even hear the tonal differences when my guitar player's battery is going dead in his pedals.  I'll spend hours stressing over whether a chord should be minor or major whereas my non-musician friends and family say it sounds the same.  I can't understand why they can't tell the difference, but they can't :)

    My point?  Try different rates.  If it sounds "better" or different, go for it.  If you are happy at 44.1 or 48, then stick with it.  The main goal is that you are happy with the music that comes from your DAW.  My advice to the people who visit my studio who ask this question is don't spend the money on computer hardware, converters, etc. to support higher rates if they are on a budget.  Spend the money on instruments, instrument samplers, synths, or even voice lessons!  haha (some REALLY need voice lessons) I guess what I'm trying to say is that good music willl probably sound good at any sampling rate.  If it sucks, then it's still going to suck at 196k.
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    wintaper
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    Re:What Sample Rate? 64-bit Double Precision Engine? 2011/01/23 12:50:35 (permalink)

    The lower the sample rate, more more data of your performance that is disappearing forever



    Incorrect (here we go again) - please re-read Nyquist Sampling Theory


    or (even better) read Dan Lavry's excellent document on sampling ...

    Sampling Theory For Digital Audio - Lavry Engineering ...

    post edited by wintaper - 2011/01/23 13:00:21

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    DonaldDuck
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    Re:What Sample Rate? 64-bit Double Precision Engine? 2011/01/23 13:21:44 (permalink)
    wintaper



    The lower the sample rate, more more data of your performance that is disappearing forever



    Incorrect (here we go again) - please re-read Nyquist Sampling Theory


    or (even better) read Dan Lavry's excellent document on sampling ...

    Sampling Theory For Digital Audio - Lavry Engineering ...
     
     
    Not incorrect... sampling rate is nothing more than taking samples.. thus the name, sampling rate.  The more slices, the more info that is being captured.  The benefits... ie the ability of the human ear to hear a difference is debatable, but to argue it isn't capturing more info is just not intelligent.  Oh wait! I got it! The file size is larger because it captures the same or less information... Yeah, makes sense.... Got it.

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    DonaldDuck
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    Re:What Sample Rate? 64-bit Double Precision Engine? 2011/01/23 13:29:05 (permalink)
    wintaper



    The lower the sample rate, more more data of your performance that is disappearing forever



    Incorrect (here we go again) - please re-read Nyquist Sampling Theory


    or (even better) read Dan Lavry's excellent document on sampling ...

    Sampling Theory For Digital Audio - Lavry Engineering ...


    I have to ask... so what sampling rate do YOU use? 

    -Donald

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    #10
    listen
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    Re:What Sample Rate? 64-bit Double Precision Engine? 2011/01/23 21:30:34 (permalink)
    Donald Duck,

    Kudos to both of your post - Tom use the rate that works for your DAW.  I personally record in 48K and of course you have to bring back down to 44K for CD, etc... 

    I am utilizing Sonar Producer 8.5.3 and X1 / V Studio 700 C & IO...
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    n0rd
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    Re:What Sample Rate? 64-bit Double Precision Engine? 2011/01/24 04:29:40 (permalink)
    My suggestion to the OP - If you really want to know all about sampling rate etc read about it yourself (Be warned - there's lots of math).

    [NOTE: When I say 'read' - I mean fact's - not forums, blogs etc avoid almost everything on the internet... Here's a crazy idea - try a library.]

    Too many times I have read non-sense regarding bit rate and sample frequency... People claiming 'facts' and 'double blind' tests etc...

    "Here we go again" - No chance, I'm off this ride... Good day.
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    tuneboxii
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    Re:What Sample Rate? 64-bit Double Precision Engine? 2011/01/24 06:50:16 (permalink)
    Most of the time my tunes end up as 320 mp3s or occasionaly on CD so for me it makes no sense to go with a high sampling rate.

    That, combined with the fact that the theory behind sample rate (the maths), and thus the understanding of the potential benfits goes straight over my head, means i generally stick to 44.1 kHz at 24 bit.

    Afaik this is still fairly standard. Any track I've sent to be mastered is a 24 bit wav at 44.1.
    #13
    AT
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    Re:What Sample Rate? 64-bit Double Precision Engine? 2011/01/24 10:22:18 (permalink)
    44.1 is pretty standard for rate.  Bit depth should be 24 bits.  Lavry makes pretty good convertors and I won't argue w/ his math.  On the other hand, Rupert Neve thought that sampling rates needed to go up - "that is the problem w/ digital."   Some people claim they hear a difference, others hear none w/ sample rate, and that includes engineers etc.  So do a test w/ your ears and equipment and decide for yourself.  You may hear a difference and go w/ the higher rate.  Or not, and don't sweat it.

    I, and many others use 44.1 and 24 bit and no one has ever said it sounds like crap because of the sample rate.

    And as said above, the 64 bit engine in SONAR should be on.  It lets SONAR use more calculations internally.  More numbers is good for calculations.  A lot of the "better sounding" effects from yesterday (and, I believe, the much beloved UAD effects today) use(d) upsampling to achieve their sound.  It has nothing to do w/  the end products rate.  24 bit is fine, leaves more headroom than you can hear (theoretically 144 dB from nothing to loudest) and is as deep as hardware can go.

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    John
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    Re:What Sample Rate? 64-bit Double Precision Engine? 2011/01/24 12:36:37 (permalink)
    Not incorrect... sampling rate is nothing more than taking samples.. thus the name, sampling rate. The more slices, the more info that is being captured. The benefits... ie the ability of the human ear to hear a difference is debatable, but to argue it isn't capturing more info is just not intelligent. Oh wait! I got it! The file size is larger because it captures the same or less information... Yeah, makes sense.... Got it.
    Some what true.  What a higher sample rate gives one is a wider bandwidth. It does not give one more precision in the range of frequencies between 20 and 20,000 hz. This is a mistaken belief of those that don't understand how sampling works. 44.1 is all you need to get the 20 to 20 khz range. More then that and you get frequencies that no one can hear or use.

    Best
    John
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    Bub
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    Re:What Sample Rate? 64-bit Double Precision Engine? 2011/01/24 13:31:13 (permalink)
    I keep changing my mind on this topic. The lowest I ever go is 48/24, but I have done projects 44.1/24 and 96/24. I noticed when I used 44.1/24 I would get a noticeable distortion when I dithered to 16bit if I had a lot of plugins in my project. That happened to me a few times so I bumped up to 48 and 96. The higher you go, the less latency you have also.

    The other thing to consider is, do you work with samples or do your synth's use a particular sampling rate? Unless your going to be recording something from a very high quality mic or through a high quality pre-amp, I don't think it matters much.

    As for the 20 ~ 20k range, I'm not sure what to think about it. Vinyl has a much narrower range and personally I prefer the sound of most LP's compared to CD's. Yet they sell cartridge's for record players that boast 5 ~ 25K response range.

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    tarsier
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    Re:What Sample Rate? 64-bit Double Precision Engine? 2011/01/24 14:35:00 (permalink)
    On the other hand, Rupert Neve thought that sampling rates needed to go up - "that is the problem w/ digital."

    But Mr. Neve also freely admits he knows nothing about digital design.
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    wintaper
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    Re:What Sample Rate? 64-bit Double Precision Engine? 2011/01/24 20:25:07 (permalink)
    The initial advantage to 96kHz had less to do with sample rate than it did to do with the low-pass filter in front of the the A/D converters. Since any frequency above 1/2 the sample rate will 'alias' to a lower frequency - those higher frequencies need to be removed before the A/D conversion.

    Lets say you're sampling at 48kHz - you'd need to eliminate everything above 24kHz. That requires a pretty steep low-pass filter and early ones just weren't that good. Basically, they'd have adverse affects on the upper frequencies of the audible range.

    By moving to 96kHz, the highest allowable frequency is 48kHz - well outside the human audible spectrum. So much so that you can use a much cheaper (less-steep) low-pass and still not have to worry about affecting frequencies less than 20kHz. This was the real driver behind higher sample rates - moving the lowpass farther out of the audible range.

    Today's filters are much better, thus, the need to oversample is lessened. So if you're not worried about capturing the overtones of a ride cymbal out to 30kHz, There's no reason to go higher than 48k.

    There are a lot of compelling reasons to stay 44.1k or 48k ...

    1. You can run more channels and plugins at 48k than at 96k. 
    2. 96k files are twice as large - so you can fit less on the same disk
    3. 96k files require twice the hard drive bandwidth
    4. Jitter becomes more of an issue at higher sample rates

    post edited by wintaper - 2011/01/24 20:26:38

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