Helpful ReplyProject size becoming HUGE for no reason...

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bitfodder
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2011/01/30 17:26:18 (permalink)

Project size becoming HUGE for no reason...

I've been working on a small project that seems to be having issuses.
 
Every time I make small edting changes the project size gets bigger and bigger.
 
I started out with a 2.5 meg project and now it's in the range of 49.5 meg.
 
It's taking 5 minutes to save and 20 minutes to load.
 
I've only got 15 plugins and 4 synths running.
 
I think a total of 20 tracks...
 
Anybody have similar issues?
#1
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    The Maillard Reaction
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    Re:Project size becoming HUGE for no reason... 2011/01/30 17:53:01 (permalink)
    I had noticed that my empty X1 projects were approximately 2.5 MB and thought that was huge.

    Empty project 1  empty track, no plugins... nada... 2.5 MB.

    Good luck.

    best regards,
    mike


    #2
    panup
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    Re:Project size becoming HUGE for no reason... 2011/01/30 18:04:21 (permalink)
    I've noticed that enabling AudioSnap makes projects very large.
    #3
    bitfodder
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    Re:Project size becoming HUGE for no reason... 2011/01/30 19:32:00 (permalink)
    hmmm.... I'll try disabling audiosnap.

    Thanks for your help.
    #4
    bitfodder
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    Re:Project size becoming HUGE for no reason... 2011/01/30 20:35:17 (permalink)
    I tired it but it didn't help in my case. Now the project is 89 meg and took an hour to load.
    This seems very odd.
    #5
    Crg
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    Re:Project size becoming HUGE for no reason... 2011/01/30 20:46:38 (permalink)
    Definitely not normal. All the effects and synths are active? How much automation do you have going on in the project? Look at your Event veiw and see if you have like way to many controller events.

    Craig DuBuc
    #6
    bitfodder
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    Re:Project size becoming HUGE for no reason... 2011/01/30 21:13:03 (permalink)
    I double checked the audiosnap pallette and turned  the power button off. I had previously only made all the track views to clip. Now the project is 2.9 meg. The autosave version just before I turned off audiosnap is 91 meg.

    Seems like a problem with audiosnap for my system configuration.

    Thanks for all your help!!
    #7
    Crg
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    Re:Project size becoming HUGE for no reason... 2011/01/30 21:16:06 (permalink)
    bitfodder


    I double checked the audiosnap pallette and turned  the power button off. I had previously only made all the track views to clip. Now the project is 2.9 meg. The autosave version just before I turned off audiosnap is 91 meg.

    Seems like a problem with audiosnap for my system configuration.

    Thanks for all your help!!


    Sound more like a problem with autosave.

    Craig DuBuc
    #8
    Beagle
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    Re:Project size becoming HUGE for no reason... 2011/01/30 21:17:36 (permalink)
    any audio tracks?  what sampling rate?

    http://soundcloud.com/beaglesound/sets/featured-songs-1
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    #9
    bitfodder
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    Re:Project size becoming HUGE for no reason... 2011/01/30 21:25:10 (permalink)
    16 audio tracks, 44.1

    The project size was 89 meg before I actually turned off audiosnap.

    The autosave was from 15 minutes before, I only mentioned it as a before/after of turning off audiosnap.

    #10
    Crg
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    Re:Project size becoming HUGE for no reason... 2011/01/30 21:29:28 (permalink)
    edit- reaudiosnap, edit-reaudiosnap, autosave with effects active and edits unsaved, edit-reaudiosnap...

    Craig DuBuc
    #11
    Kalle Rantaaho
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    Re:Project size becoming HUGE for no reason... 2011/01/31 03:51:59 (permalink)
    bitfodder


    16 audio tracks, 44.1

    The project size was 89 meg before I actually turned off audiosnap.

    The autosave was from 15 minutes before, I only mentioned it as a before/after of turning off audiosnap.

    Have I misunderstood something? Are you saying that a project of 16 audiotracks/89 megs is alarmingly big?? I think it's tiny. My 30-40 track projects, about half midi/audio are between 700 Mb- 1,5 Gigas. Remember you're not dealing with lossy MP3s, but wav-files.
     
    The starting size, empty project 2,5 megas is on large side, I think. Maybe SONAR makes some kind of a "reservation of space" for some reason.
     
    But those increbly long loading times are a problem to solve, so I do agree you have a problem.
     
    What are your PC specs?
     

    SONAR PE 8.5.3, Asus P5B, 2,4 Ghz Dual Core, 4 Gb RAM, GF 7300, EMU 1820, Bluetube Pre  -  Kontakt4, Ozone, Addictive Drums, PSP Mixpack2, Melda Creative Pack, Melodyne Plugin etc.
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    #12
    kubalibre
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    Re:Project size becoming HUGE for no reason... 2011/01/31 04:15:18 (permalink)
    Your project is STUFFED with creativity!

    ---------------------------------------------
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    #13
    The Maillard Reaction
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    Re:Project size becoming HUGE for no reason... 2011/01/31 07:39:36 (permalink)
    Kalle Rantaaho


    bitfodder


    16 audio tracks, 44.1

    The project size was 89 meg before I actually turned off audiosnap.

    The autosave was from 15 minutes before, I only mentioned it as a before/after of turning off audiosnap.

    Have I misunderstood something? Are you saying that a project of 16 audiotracks/89 megs is alarmingly big?? I think it's tiny. My 30-40 track projects, about half midi/audio are between 700 Mb- 1,5 Gigas. Remember you're not dealing with lossy MP3s, but wav-files.
     
    The starting size, empty project 2,5 megas is on large side, I think. Maybe SONAR makes some kind of a "reservation of space" for some reason.
     
    But those increbly long loading times are a problem to solve, so I do agree you have a problem.
     
    What are your PC specs?
     
    A project is basically an edit decision list that may be storing some MIDI and automation.

    A project folder may also include your audio folder and that collection of files in it's totality can easily become a GB or more.

    The actual .cwp file has never been very large because it is simply a fancy edit decision list.

    Heck I thought 2.5MB was ridiculously large for an empty SONAR project... but I haven't checked to see if past versions are similar... it may simply be that bare bones .cwp files have been creeping into larger sizes and I finally noticed while trouble shooting another problem.

    best regards,
    mike





    #14
    Crg
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    Re:Project size becoming HUGE for no reason... 2011/01/31 08:01:24 (permalink)
    How many autosaves occured?

    Craig DuBuc
    #15
    Kalle Rantaaho
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    Re:Project size becoming HUGE for no reason... 2011/01/31 08:03:59 (permalink)
    Oh yes. I did not think that far. It would be essential to know whether the OP is talking about the .cwp-file only or the actual project.

    Anyways....the loading times...something is really wrong...or the OP is using a PC of very insufficient performance.

    SONAR PE 8.5.3, Asus P5B, 2,4 Ghz Dual Core, 4 Gb RAM, GF 7300, EMU 1820, Bluetube Pre  -  Kontakt4, Ozone, Addictive Drums, PSP Mixpack2, Melda Creative Pack, Melodyne Plugin etc.
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    #16
    Manolo
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    Re:Project size becoming HUGE for no reason... 2011/01/31 08:07:04 (permalink)
    Someone reports about a month ago a memory leak with Sonitus delay. Have you got the Sonitus delay in your project ?

    RME Fireface UC | Sonar Platinum x64/Windows 10 Pro x64| Superior 2.0 with all Toontrack soundbanks, Eastwest Complete Composer used in Kontakt 5, Ozone 5 | VS-700C, BCF 2000

    #17
    panup
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    Re:Project size becoming HUGE for no reason... 2011/01/31 08:12:10 (permalink)
    Sonar seems to store AudioSnap data even if it is turned off.
    However, your file size is ridiculous.

    Try to append your huge project to an empty project.  (Append is new X1 feature, try to drag & drop a cwp file!)
    If this does not work then save track settings to a template and import audio to a new project file. This has helped me many times.

    -Panu
    #18
    Grumbleweed_
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    Re:Project size becoming HUGE for no reason... 2011/01/31 08:12:41 (permalink)
    Manolo


    Someone reports about a month ago a memory leak with Sonitus delay. Have you got the Sonitus delay in your project ?

    That was eating up RAM which would not affect the save file size.
     
    Grum. 

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    #19
    Manolo
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    Re:Project size becoming HUGE for no reason... 2011/01/31 08:51:45 (permalink)
    Oops, my bad.

    RME Fireface UC | Sonar Platinum x64/Windows 10 Pro x64| Superior 2.0 with all Toontrack soundbanks, Eastwest Complete Composer used in Kontakt 5, Ozone 5 | VS-700C, BCF 2000

    #20
    bitfodder
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    Re:Project size becoming HUGE for no reason... 2011/01/31 10:49:21 (permalink)
    just the .cwp file was 90+ meg...

    the machine is a HP XW8400 with dual Quad Core Xeon's running at 64bit with 16 gig of ram
    MOTU 828 Mark II firewire
    15,000 RPM SAS Audio drive
    15,000 RPM SAS samples drive
    15,000 RPM SAS system drive
    4 Drive video raid

    All seems well now, if I keep audiosnap turned off...

    Thanks for all your help everyone!

    #21
    Bub
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    Re:Project size becoming HUGE for no reason... 2011/01/31 11:39:11 (permalink)
    Ahh ... Audio-Snap, the gift that keeps on giving.

    :)

    "I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
    #22
    bitflipper
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    Re:Project size becoming HUGE for no reason... 2011/01/31 12:22:22 (permalink)
    What follows is pure supposition...

    It only makes sense that once you have AudioSnap enabled on a clip you have generated additional data and that data has to be persisted somewhere. Since everything except audio goes into the cwp, the cwp gets bigger. 

    Every time  autosave is initiated, that data is appended to the file in order to preserve the ability to return to a previous snapshot. Consequently, the cwp is going to keep on growing as long as you have AudioSnap data. I'd guess the same would be true for V-Vocal clips.

    The elegant solution would be to check if the AudioSnap data had changed and then reference the first AudioSnap block in the cwp if it hadn't. But this is probably impossible without fundamental changes to the cwp file format that would break backward compatibility.



    All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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    #23
    Middleman
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    Re:Project size becoming HUGE for no reason... 2011/01/31 12:42:11 (permalink)
    More speculation but something to consider. Are you using any of the video Raid drives for audio? It appears not but that might slow things down even more. I am pretty sure Sonar is not optimized for raid configurations.

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    #24
    bitfodder
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    Re:Project size becoming HUGE for no reason... 2011/01/31 13:33:32 (permalink)
    I don't use the raid for anything except video... and I usually only turn it on then also. It was off for all of the above behavior.

    I'm only guessing but it seems like what bitflipper proposed is close to the truth. It may be an additive undo buffer that keeps storing transient data as an ever-growing monster.

    I'll try making only one undo buffer and see if there's a way to not include the undo in the saved file.

    I have some V-Vocal work in the project, but it does not seem to balloon the project in the same way that audiosnap does.

    HW8400 Dual Quads, 16Gig Ram, MOTU 828 MKII, Sonar X1, Avid Artist Control, UA LA-610 Mk II, Ensoniq KT88, Samplitude 10, Pianoteq, Izotope Ozone, SD Trigger, Yellow Tools Independance, SampleTank, AAS suite, etc... 
    #25
    Kurtly
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    Re:Project size becoming HUGE for no reason... 2011/04/23 21:50:14 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby CadErik 2013/07/17 23:29:17
    I have just had the same problem, mine was 114mb.

    I selected all audio in my hour+ long project and turned off audio snap (I though it was only enabled on a per clip basis, but parts I had not enabled it on seemed to have it turned on)

    I saved the project, closed and re-opened it. The cwp file was still 114mb

    I had the drum tracks frozen, when you unfreeze you lose all your edits (found that out the hard way) but I discovered that if you clone a frozen track the clone is unfrozen. So I cloned the drum tracks, deleted the frozen edited ones then saved again.

    Voila! 2.5mb project file.
    #26
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