Has Anyone Tried Clip Automation Envelopes?

I just tried this for the first time in X1 and much to my chagrin, it's another thing broken.... Or have I missed some new method of selecting/editing?

I have 3 clips on one track displayed in three layers... The top layer is muted and I select the middle and bottom (now highlighted).
I then use the danged Track Filter and select Clip Automation|Pan...

All three clips get envelopes drawn on them...

I then attempt to edit them...

First time I tried editing the middle clip but I can't get the envelope to become active (can't edit)... finally Sonar crashes...

Next time, I try the bottom clip and I'm able to edit the envelope... I still cannot get at the other clips' envelopes...

I've reported this as a bug... Can anyone explain a procedure to me that solves this dilemma or is it yet another bad bug...?

Thanks...
Keni

Middleman


I followed your instructions step by step and was able to edit the clips individually. I just hovered over the pan envelope, clicked the mouse and was able to move the clip automation. Then I moved to the third clip and was able to do the same. I also muted the upper one and although not in your example was able to edit that as well. No crash here.

Hmmm...

So I wonder what's going on with my scenario? I've tried it a number of times and cannot access the other two envelopes...

The cursor becomes cross-hairs with the envelope image below to the right...

When I pass over the 3rd )lowest) clip, the cross hairs turn into the Move icon still with the envelope image to the bottom right of it... Nothing I have tried makes the other envelopes active...

I'll try some more research...

Thanks...
Keni

Here's more...

why is another story...

But when I unmuted the top clip, both the middle and the top became show the active pointer, but not when hovering over the middle or top envelope... Only in the upper/lower third of each clip... and if I click drag there it changes the BOTTOM clip's envelope only?!?

Middleman


Well there is the new behavior in X1 which has a different cursor or action depending on whether you are hovering over the upper half or lower half of a track or clip. See page 399 & 409-440 in the manual. You will get a variety of different reactions based on this.
 
Ugh ignore the above, well don't ignore it but it doesn't pertain to your comment which I re-read. It sounds like you might have the two clips grouped so that changes to one makes changes to the other. That is a setting that may be affecting your behavior.

Nope... Nothing is grouped or locked that I can find. (I don't use those features yet I looked to see)...

tho they all do come from the same actual recording. they were loop recorded so they are a single file displayed as 3 individual clips from each pass... Maybe that's the issue?

See if that happens for you... Do a recording in loop mode doing three passes... Then see if this happens?

Thanks...
Keni

Middleman


Ok, I got a little bit of some action this time but what was occurring is that the cursor changing to the proper smartool is a little slow. Hover for a couple of seconds and it changes to the move tool and you can access it. Otherwise, was able to access all of the clips. There was a little funny business around the muted version. I clicked mute on then off once and then got it to work. It appears a little buggy i.e. the cursor is not updated to the right tool as fast as it should. It basically works but a little sluggish.
 
Another comment, this is with overlapping layers and I can't see wanting to automate as you are suggesting. Generally, for example vocal comping, you would mute and unmute, possibly delete some layers, and then bounce the final to its own track and automate there. That's how I work anyway, reducing down the complexity to a workable track which gets the final automation. I generally don't automate layered tracks but edit, clip adjust, mute etc. and don't leave overlapping clips in the working layered track. Prior to this however, I copy the original takes to another layered track copy and use that track editing, archive the original. Then I bounce that work to a final which gets the automation.
 
Maybe you are doing some special effects thing however and have a need for that kind of automation.

How long should I wait for the cursor to change? 30 seconds? A minute didn't change anything...

No overlapping clips... these are three takes generated using recording while in loop... But I tried this with 3 separate recordings and it's the same issue...

Often when I'm working on backup vocals I want to hear them split left and right as I generate stereo backups... But I only do this after I've complied the track and bounced to clips or tracks somewhere... It's sometimes less crowded to have a single track spitting out two mono clips left/right instead of two mono tracks...

Keni

Middleman


Ok, verified your findings. I got it to duplicate your problem. It also locked up and died.

There is a crash scenario there but understand that by default the clips are linked when using looped recording. When you are selecting all of the clips and then turning on pan automation you are creating 3 pans but, because the clips are still linked,  only one of the clips is the control clip.

Here is a work around, select all of the clips and then go up above to the clips pull down, and choose "Remove from clip selection group". Then you should be able to click each individual clip and assigned individual pans without any issues. I just did this and it worked. Let me know how you come out. Also turn off looping prior to doing this.

I checked them for being grouped/not much earlier when we were chatting about this... and to be certain that I was getting wrong info in the clips info box, I followed your instructions and ungrouped them that way... I can still only access the lowest clip envelope of the three...

And when I adjust the lowest (3rd) if it was linked, shouldn't the envelopes in the "grouped" clips have been adjusted as I tweaked the 3rd? They did not...

Thanks for trying tho... at least you found somewhere that the problem exists for you too... But as we can see there's still something else going on here...

Keni

Thanks Middleman...

I've clicked and clicked on ungroup selected clips and tried it one at a time as well... Nothing changes this behavior...  I also created three separate recordings... One at a time and the same thing happens... so I don't think this isbecause they're grouped...

BTW... What's the difference between grouped and linked???

Not to worry too much... As I'm not using any new features, it's essentially invisible for me to take it back into 8.5 whenever I get stuck and then move back to x1 for more self-destruction! ;-)

Keni

aeosus


Clip automation when working in layers has numerous problems. I have also had the same problem as you. I suppose it is a bug. 

Also, if you insert a gain envelope on a clip and don't use it right away, it disappears and you have to re-insert it.

Here is another problem: the actual editing of gain while in layers is very buggy. Take a look: http://www.screencast.com/users/kahlilg/folders/Jing/media/fc5c5727-3bec-435b-a86c-b09a23f34e50

Thanks for the confirmation...

I've had a number of problems (and filed bug reports) with clip layers... Right now, working with X1a is quite a nightmare for me even after learning where they've moved and hidden everything they left "us"...

I'm getting a bad taste in my mouth for events since the Roland take over.... and it's getting more sour by the release... this one really topped the cake! ;-)



Keni

stratman70

Keni

aeosus


Clip automation when working in layers has numerous problems. I have also had the same problem as you. I suppose it is a bug. 

Also, if you insert a gain envelope on a clip and don't use it right away, it disappears and you have to re-insert it.

Here is another problem: the actual editing of gain while in layers is very buggy. Take a look: http://www.screencast.com/users/kahlilg/folders/Jing/media/fc5c5727-3bec-435b-a86c-b09a23f34e50

Thanks for the confirmation...

I've had a number of problems (and filed bug reports) with clip layers... Right now, working with X1a is quite a nightmare for me even after learning where they've moved and hidden everything they left "us"...

I'm getting a bad taste in my mouth for events since the Roland take over.... and it's getting more sour by the release... this one really topped the cake! ;-)



Keni

Keni
I am curious and very sincere with this question. You are obviously very upset and disgruntled with X1a. You have posted so numerous times.
Why are you stressing yourself out? Just use 853. I really do not understand. Hopefully down the road X1 will work the way it should.
Until then why not give yourself a break.
Regards
Frank

Hi stratman...

Thanks... I appreciate your concern...

I've been a very long time user of Cakewalk software. In the past... it was always the voiced needs of it's users that gave the Bakers much of their' direction... So I know that unless these issues are brought up and kept in their' immediate minds, they may never get addressed... Of course this is tempered with their' company directives and personalities as well, so things don't always get done when we think they're needed or important...

I do continue to work in 8.5.3

I do no sessions for clients in X1, but I must work with it to find it's flaws so thaty they WILL get corrected/improved/etc...

My strong reactions? I'm a sensitive, touchy artist, eh? ;-)

X1 feels to me as if they took too big a bite without realizing how far back this would actually set things. It's only my opinion, but I see them losing sales due to this release... I hope for their' sakes that they make enuf to prosper... I don't want them to have hard times, but this release is the shakiest I've ever experienced from them and appears to have fallen farther behind due to graphics issues more than music issues...

So please understand... as I appreciate others concerns for me in this respect, I feel it my "duty" to make these issues known... and how important they are to many of us...

...and I want a future with more Sonar! Bug Fixes and Features... But I do feel very ripped off this release as I've lost more than I've gained...

Keni

Keni


I just tried this for the first time in X1 and much to my chagrin, it's another thing broken.... Or have I missed some new method of selecting/editing?

I have 3 clips on one track displayed in three layers... The top layer is muted and I select the middle and bottom (now highlighted).
I then use the danged Track Filter and select Clip Automation|Pan...

All three clips get envelopes drawn on them...

I then attempt to edit them...

First time I tried editing the middle clip but I can't get the envelope to become active (can't edit)... finally Sonar crashes...

Next time, I try the bottom clip and I'm able to edit the envelope... I still cannot get at the other clips' envelopes...

I've reported this as a bug... Can anyone explain a procedure to me that solves this dilemma or is it yet another bad bug...?

Thanks...
Keni

I get weird & inconsistent behavior too when trying to edit clip envelopes on layered audio. It's even worse for MIDI clips, when sometimes instead of clip envelopes I can only get one track envelope to appear (with "clip" velocity selected in the Edit filter). Hopefully the envelope issues will get fixed in X1b. 

You are not alone, Keni. I find when I have several layers in a track, I have to drag individual clips to an adjacent empty track, do modifications to clip envelopes there, then move them back to the original track.

CW really screwed the pooch with this release. But I do like the ProChannel quite a lot now.