Mastering with Music Creator 5

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BENZOFOG
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2011/02/09 13:37:37 (permalink)

Mastering with Music Creator 5

Hello,
1. I record with MC5 is there a program or software that i can purchase to do mastering so that i may have more control over my final mix...
2. Im using Audicy (spelling maybe) sound card which has this interface so to speak. It has this instrument input with a gain knob and the usual head set with output knob.
My biggest question would be what to do or how to mix down recordings alot better using MC5...I would really appreciate advice....
Thanks,
Danny 
post edited by BENZOFOG - 2011/02/09 13:53:07
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    Beagle
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    Re:Mastering with Music Creator 5 2011/02/09 14:05:46 (permalink)
    2) soundcard Audicy?  maybe Audigy?  Soundblaster? 

    1) what exactly are you missing from your mixes?  on suggestion I have is to post your songs on the songs forum here on cakewalk and ask for mixing help.  folks are typically very helpful there (especially if you take the time to listen to some other peoples' music and comment on it - even if the comment is just "I liked it.")

    there are a lot of "mastering" type programs, but you can go a long ways in MC first.

    http://soundcloud.com/beaglesound/sets/featured-songs-1
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    Kalle Rantaaho
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    Re:Mastering with Music Creator 5 2011/02/09 14:28:41 (permalink)
     1) World is full of software. What is your budget? If you ask me for one suggestion I'd say Izotope Ozone 4.
    2) Your soundcard plays no role in the sound of your final exports. A good soundcard, good monitor speakers and acoustically good room makes mixing and mastering easier. It's up to those three to make it possible to hear how the projects actually sound, but the data creation is up to MC. Then again, the quality of the original recordings depends very much on the quality of the soundcard (and microphones, guitars etc.).

    Audigy and other SB products are not on the list of recommended soundcards here, but with right settings you can manage with them. It's not a question of sound quality but other issues.
    post edited by Kalle Rantaaho - 2011/02/09 14:31:24

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    Guitarhacker
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    Re:Mastering with Music Creator 5 2011/02/09 14:33:44 (permalink)
    Danny..... First thing I would get is a good audio interface if you don't already have one.

    There are some good tools in MC5 that will get you started. Also in the SOFTWARE thread there is a thread now that has 25 FREE mastering plugs..... you might want to check that out.  HERE

    Before you do any "mastering" I would first have a good stable audio interface and some decent reference monitors so you can be assured that you are actually getting a good sound. Without those 2 things, you really don't know what you are getting in the final mix.
    post edited by Guitarhacker - 2011/02/09 14:34:58

    My website & music: www.herbhartley.com

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    Tap
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    Re:Mastering with Music Creator 5 2011/02/09 14:42:57 (permalink)
    Best way to learn how to mix is by doing it. You can do quite a bit to master your mix in MC. Learn to work with the tools you have and add only when you need to. Mixing is an art and the most important tool is your ears.  The songs forum is a great way to learn to listen to how other people hear and mix their music. As Beagle mentioned, when listening and commenting on other people's music they generally will return the courtesy of doing the same for your music as well. There are a number of different techniques that different people use to approach their work flow. It's all a matter of learning how to work with what you have to get the most of what you've got which will help you to determine what it is that you need to improve to get where you what to be. Mixing is only part of the picture. It's important to start with a captured performance. All the mixing in the world isn't really going to make a bad performance or a bad signal sound good. Having equipment which will capture a decent sound and reproduce it accurately is half the battle. Mixing the different signals to get a good group performance is the second half of the battle. Mastering is usually only applied when one bundles a number of different songs together to form a final album.  

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    BENZOFOG
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    Re:Mastering with Music Creator 5 2011/02/09 22:38:41 (permalink)
    Audigy yes lol Oh my Im a googball thanks guys for all the advice i really appreciate it.
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    57Gregy
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    Re:Mastering with Music Creator 5 2011/02/09 23:18:32 (permalink)
    The terms 'mixing' and 'mastering' have been used interchangably so often that many folks think they're the same thing. They're 2 different things. You mix a song. You master an album.
    But I think we all know what you mean.
    When mixing a song, you want a good sense of space, spreading the instruments around in the stereo filed.
    The usual mix for pop/rock songs has the bass guitar, lead vocals, kick drum, snare and any solos in the middle. Cymbals and toms are left and right, just as if you were standing in front of the drum set. Guitars or other backing instruments spread to the sides. Background vocals (BGV) are usually off to one side.
    Then you get to adding some compression where needed, using equalization to temper any overly-loud frequencies, or to boost a particular freq that may be too low. Reverb here and there to increase the spatiality of the song, or a specific instrument.
    Maybe a compressor in the master bus for the final mix.
    So a good EQ, compressor and reverb are the basic tools you'll need. MC 5 has all of them, I believe.

    Greg 
    I am selling my MIM Fender Stratocaster HSS, red and black. PM for more details.

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    BENZOFOG
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    Re:Mastering with Music Creator 5 2011/02/10 00:00:46 (permalink)
    I know Gregg but it seems either my levels are in the RED!!! at final mix or too soft to ROCK out at final. YES! i can bring the levels down but I seem to be losing something I started out creating for example i turn down the mix to get out of the red I lose that punchy wet kick sound that I love....I want crunchy guitars crisp bass and a wet kick is that too much to ask. Lord i just about on the floor kicking and screaming...wish my worthless back would let me get down to the floor lol
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    Kalle Rantaaho
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    Re:Mastering with Music Creator 5 2011/02/10 02:48:22 (permalink)
    BENZOFOG


    I know Gregg but it seems either my levels are in the RED!!! at final mix or too soft to ROCK out at final. YES! i can bring the levels down but I seem to be losing something I started out creating for example i turn down the mix to get out of the red I lose that punchy wet kick sound that I love....I want crunchy guitars crisp bass and a wet kick is that too much to ask. Lord i just about on the floor kicking and screaming...wish my worthless back would let me get down to the floor lol


    That punchy wet kick sound does not disappear anywhere if you lower the level clearly below red. It will be there when listening the final CD loud enough . It's the loudness of your monitor speakers, not the Master Bus, that makes the kick sound loud and juicy, if you want to look at it that way.

    If the kick can't be heard among the other instruments loud enough then your mix balance and/or EQ is simply wrong. Be careful not to get used to mixing with too loud monitoring volumes.

    One important thing to learn is: It's usually more fruitfull to cut than boost. If you always keep boosting the part you want more upfront instead of cutting the others to make room, you'll  put yourself against the wall.

    SONAR PE 8.5.3, Asus P5B, 2,4 Ghz Dual Core, 4 Gb RAM, GF 7300, EMU 1820, Bluetube Pre  -  Kontakt4, Ozone, Addictive Drums, PSP Mixpack2, Melda Creative Pack, Melodyne Plugin etc.
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    Guitarhacker
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    Re:Mastering with Music Creator 5 2011/02/10 09:59:32 (permalink)
    Danny... I mentioned having the right tools for the job in my post above^^^^.

    That my friend is step one. Once you have a nice, stable, good sounding system, you then have to take the time to learn what to do. You have to understand what you are doing to the guitar track when you set a compressor a certain way. You have to learn what EQ tweeks get the vocal to pop out of the mix without being too loud.

    All that stuff, takes time. I've been working on this for over 3 years now with Music Creator. I listen to some of my early mixes from time to time and compare them to what I can produce now. Quite an improvement. But those advances were made because I took the time to learn and apply, I spent a lot of time recording, experimenting, mixing, and polishing (mastering) the music.

    My advice is record lots of music and post it in the songs forum fro critiquing. Then study the advice, read, explore, learn, apply and repeat the process over and over. Ask questions too.  And stick with it.

    Getting proficient at recording, mixing, engineering, and mastering music is just like learning to play an instrument.... it takes time, and practice.

    My website & music: www.herbhartley.com

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    Robomusic
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    Re:Mastering with Music Creator 5 2011/02/10 10:47:16 (permalink)
    The Herbster speaketh the truth!

    I'd Seize the day but i can't quite reach it!

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    57Gregy
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    Re:Mastering with Music Creator 5 2011/02/10 10:51:22 (permalink)
    BENZOFOG


    I know Gregg but it seems either my levels are in the RED!!! at final mix or too soft to ROCK out at final. YES! i can bring the levels down but I seem to be losing something I started out creating for example i turn down the mix to get out of the red I lose that punchy wet kick sound that I love....I want crunchy guitars crisp bass and a wet kick is that too much to ask. Lord i just about on the floor kicking and screaming...wish my worthless back would let me get down to the floor lol

    But you didn't record them in the red, right?
    I've read here that a good way to start the mix is to lower all the levels to -INF, then start with the drums, slowly raising each drum's level until it's at a good level but not in the red (~-6 or so).
    Balance the drum levels as you like them. Then go on to the next instrument until it's at an audible level with the drums and also not red-lining. Then the next track, and so on.
    You should also use buses, don't send any audio track outputs directly to the sound card. A Master bus in the last step of the audio chain is the only one that should have the output to the sound card.
    If it's not loud enough, turn up whatever you're listening to it through, but the outputs should never go into the red too far, preferably not at all.
    What kind of music do you record?
    Post a song, or a snippet of a song in the Cakewalk Songs forum; lots of folks will comment, possibly using terms I don't understand, but they can also give you good advice (sometimes) about what needs to be done to the track.

    Greg 
    I am selling my MIM Fender Stratocaster HSS, red and black. PM for more details.

    Music Creator 2003, MC Pro 24, SONAR Home Studio 6 XL, SONAR  X3e, CbB, Focusrite Saffire, not enough space.
    Everything is better with pie. 

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    Guitarhacker
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    Re:Mastering with Music Creator 5 2011/02/10 12:55:53 (permalink)
    Here is a screen shot of the track view on a recent song.

    Track 1&2...vocal tracks with clipping IN THE TRACK of the wave form.... at M-15


    Notice track 8... which happens to be a synth track that is frozen.... has nice full "clean" non clipped waves.

    That is what you want to achieve...ideally. (track 8's waves... not the clipped ones in 1&2.)

    I was speaking about it takes time.... this wave form in 1&2 are from another person here in the forum who recorded these about 2.5 years ago. I know for a fact that this person has improved also from recording and learning. I'd wager that the tracks from their studio now are nothing short of perfection in regards to levels and no clipping.


    post edited by Guitarhacker - 2011/02/10 12:57:13

    My website & music: www.herbhartley.com

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    JD1813
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    Re:Mastering with Music Creator 5 2011/02/17 12:02:10 (permalink)
    What a great thread, not because it's a new subject or that there are new answers, but because this is a constant issue that all of us have had to struggle with and the only answer is the time and effort it takes to learn this process.  Herb, Greg, awesome responses.  This habit of tracking and monitoring at too high a volume is one I still fight, because even KNOWING about it and reminding myself to adjust the volumes down, I STILL sometimes find myself slowly creeping the whole mix up and up, unknowingly.  Learning how to listen to some of these things is half the battle!  And as we all know, there's nothing the matter with the tools - whether it's the $39 MC5 or the $$$ Sonar X1, the same concepts apply when it comes to tracking and mixing.  I'm glad to see this thread, it's very helpful.  Best wishes and happy recording to you all!  

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    Beagle
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    Re:Mastering with Music Creator 5 2011/02/17 13:30:26 (permalink)
    all audio tracks (whether recorded direct or mic'd or whether bounced from MIDI/output tracks) should be peaking at no more than -6dB and the project should be 24bit resolution.  this gives you the best chance to create a summed project with the best options for mixing.  when you start mixing a bunch of tracks together even at -6dB you're going to hit 0dB pretty quickly (it really only takes 2 tracks with the sliders at 0 to sum to 0dB if both tracks peak at -6dB!).

    so leave yourself some headroom for mixing!  even -12dB is good as long as you're using 24bit resolution.

    http://soundcloud.com/beaglesound/sets/featured-songs-1
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    trimph1
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    Re:Mastering with Music Creator 5 2011/02/18 21:21:39 (permalink)
    Thanks for these tips guys. 

    Going to check out the freebie mastering pieces...

    The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate.

    Bushpianos
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