drumr
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+4 or -10
My sound card (emu 1616) has options for plus 4 or minus 10 for all inputs and outputs. I know the story about one being pro and the other being consumer, etc. But is there any appriciable difference between the two soundwise? Is there an advantage, one over the other? My monitors are hooked up via shielded cables - xlr to trs 1/4. Should they at least be +4 or does it matter? thanks!
As far as inputs are concerned, will it give me less noise? Everything at the moment is -10 and is working well. Just wondering if +4 would make things better.
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Stone House Studios
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I'm sure someone else here can give you an expert explanation, but simply put, -10 is what is called "line level" and is a common output level for consumer and prosumer stuff.
+4 is hotter, and is used on prosumer and pro level stuff.
The big issue is matching your equipment needs and I/O levels. If you are putting in line level, then you should use line level. If you are putting out at +4, then that should go to a +4 input. And as always, sometimes you have to play with it to get what works well an sounds good without noise or distortion.
Brian
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g_randybrown
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If I'm coming from a board (into a Delta 1010) then I should use line level (-10) then?
post edited by g_randybrown - 2011/03/12 13:12:10
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StarTekh
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drumr
My sound card (emu 1616) has options for plus 4 or minus 10 for all inputs and outputs. I know the story about one being pro and the other being consumer, etc. But is there any appriciable difference between the two soundwise? Is there an advantage, one over the other? My monitors are hooked up via shielded cables - xlr to trs 1/4. Should they at least be +4 or does it matter? thanks!
As far as inputs are concerned, will it give me less noise? Everything at the moment is -10 and is working well. Just wondering if +4 would make things better.
Ok... on inputs: bass guitar is -10 mic is +4 on outputs +4 xlr line, to speakers, this is in general..i could go on but il stop here...
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Stone House Studios
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StarTekh
drumr
My sound card (emu 1616) has options for plus 4 or minus 10 for all inputs and outputs. I know the story about one being pro and the other being consumer, etc. But is there any appriciable difference between the two soundwise? Is there an advantage, one over the other? My monitors are hooked up via shielded cables - xlr to trs 1/4. Should they at least be +4 or does it matter? thanks!
As far as inputs are concerned, will it give me less noise? Everything at the moment is -10 and is working well. Just wondering if +4 would make things better.
Ok... on inputs: bass guitar is -10 mic is +4
on outputs +4 xlr line, to speakers, this is in
general..i could go on but il stop here...
Ummm . . . . . this is nonsense! The level of a bass or a mic has nothing to do with it. That's impedance. Look at the specs on any piece of equipment you have and it will tell you it's output. For instance, the UA 101 specs say "+4 dbu balanced" Brian
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StarTekh
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Stone House Studios
StarTekh
drumr
My sound card (emu 1616) has options for plus 4 or minus 10 for all inputs and outputs. I know the story about one being pro and the other being consumer, etc. But is there any appriciable difference between the two soundwise? Is there an advantage, one over the other? My monitors are hooked up via shielded cables - xlr to trs 1/4. Should they at least be +4 or does it matter? thanks!
As far as inputs are concerned, will it give me less noise? Everything at the moment is -10 and is working well. Just wondering if +4 would make things better.
Ok... on inputs: bass guitar is -10 mic is +4
on outputs +4 xlr line, to speakers, this is in
general..i could go on but il stop here...
Ummm . . . . . this is nonsense! The level of a bass or a mic has nothing to do with it. That's impedance.
Look at the specs on any piece of equipment you have and it will tell you it's output.
For instance, the UA 101 specs say "+4 dbu balanced"
Brian
it was said in a way so the general user would understand it, but thanks for your input..
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The Maillard Reaction
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+4dBu = 1.23 volts and -10dBV = 0.316 volts
0.316 volts = -7.79dBu
4dBu - (-7.79dBu) = 11.79dB difference
or for example;
+4dBu = 1.23 volts = 1.78dBv
1.78dBV - (-10dBV) = 11.78dB difference
When either value is reconciled to the others reference value and the actual difference in voltages are compared there is a 11.79dB difference.
The history of -10dBV is simply that old hi-fi gear was made to have lower output than professional gear as a cost saving measure.
When a pro item has a -10dBV input option the intention is to use the gain in the pro item rather than forcing the user to over drive their -10dBV gear into a input that expects a +4dBu signals. The idea is that you use the semi pro gear in it's sweet spot and the pro gear has enough gain to handle the rest.
An obvious question is to ask whether the *pro* gear is optimized for +4dBu or -10dBV. If the former, it will have adequate head room above and beyond +4dBu. Perhaps +26dBu max or 22dB headroom. If the *pro* gear is optimized for -10dBV then the +4dBu input may simply be padded to bring down the pro grade levels to the semi pro region. This would be done for cost cutting reasons and the headroom above +4dBu will generally be well below 22dB in those devices.
The only reason to use a -10dBV input is if your gear only works at -10dBV standard levels. In all cases connecting a -10dBv output to the input of +4dBU gear will increase the noise floor... if you do so and need to gain up to +4dBu nominal levels it is often cleaner to do it in the pro side of the connection.
If you connect a +4dBu output to a -10dBv input then you are sending a hot signal over the line and this will minimize the noise floor but it will also be hot and may overload the input. If you pad it down you may reduce the noise floor a bit but the -10dBV input will have to rebuild the gain if it goes further to another +4dBu device and the noise will likely return at the next stage.
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Stone House Studios
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Thanks Mike - I knew someone like you had the low down!
Brian
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StarTekh
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lol.. thanks for the long form that i didnt want to post..jon
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Stone House Studios
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StarTekh
Stone House Studios
StarTekh
drumr
My sound card (emu 1616) has options for plus 4 or minus 10 for all inputs and outputs. I know the story about one being pro and the other being consumer, etc. But is there any appriciable difference between the two soundwise? Is there an advantage, one over the other? My monitors are hooked up via shielded cables - xlr to trs 1/4. Should they at least be +4 or does it matter? thanks!
As far as inputs are concerned, will it give me less noise? Everything at the moment is -10 and is working well. Just wondering if +4 would make things better.
Ok... on inputs: bass guitar is -10 mic is +4
on outputs +4 xlr line, to speakers, this is in
general..i could go on but il stop here...
Ummm . . . . . this is nonsense! The level of a bass or a mic has nothing to do with it. That's impedance.
Look at the specs on any piece of equipment you have and it will tell you it's output.
For instance, the UA 101 specs say "+4 dbu balanced"
Brian
it was said in a way so the general user would understand it, but thanks for your input..
Your welcome.  However, if you read Mike's thorough and technical explanation, you'll see that basses and mics have nothing to do with it. Generally speaking . . . . Brian
Core i7-6700@3.40Ghz Windows 10x64 16 GB RAM Sonar Platinum/Studio One PreSonus Studio 192
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StarTekh
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Brian note orignal statement(In General) as we knew some one would take to where ever as a large studio owner, its is all history
to me.
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drumr
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Stone House Studios
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g_randybrown
If I'm coming from a board (into a Delta 1010) then I should use line level (-10) then?
Did Mike's reply get you there? If the board is outputting at nominal -10, then you should set the 1010's input to -10 in most cases. A "pro" board (not a Behringer mixer) probably outputs at +4. Brian
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Muziekschuur at home
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+4DBU was made because it could drive the 30+meters of multicables needed at large venues. It's that and nothing else. In a homestudio with lines of 6 meter max. +4 is not needed.
In past times this would allso mean tapehiss was 11DB less/lower. But with digital that's not an issue.
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g_randybrown
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Stone House Studios
g_randybrown
If I'm coming from a board (into a Delta 1010) then I should use line level (-10) then?
Did Mike's reply get you there?
If the board is outputting at nominal -10, then you should set the 1010's input to -10 in most cases. A "pro" board (not a Behringer mixer) probably outputs at +4.
Brian
Thanks Brian...there were times in Mike's post that I thought "oh I see" and then at other times thought "huh?" But it did get me off my but to read the back of my 20 year old Yamaha 1242 board. I am using the group outs which have RCA and XLR connections (RCA on above the XLRs) and they are labeled +4/-10. I'm using the XLRs to my Delta so I'm thinking I should have the Delta buttons set to +4....right? I have it stuck in my little brain somewhere that if it's TRS or XLR (both balanced) that generally speaking one should use +4 but I dunno. I've never had issues with noise but I don't want to fry anything. Thanks again Brian, Randy
G. Randy Brown Windows 10, 64 bit, PlatinumIntel Core i7-3770S Asus P8Z77-V LK mobo 4X8GB Corsair XMS3 memory 500 GB Crucial BX100 SSD (OS)two WD Black 1 TB HDDSAPPHIRE DUAL-X 100314-4L Radeon HD 6970 2GB 256-Bit GDDR5 Presonus AudioBox 22VSLyoutube.com/crystalclearnm
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Stone House Studios
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If you connect a +4dBu output to a -10dBv input then you are sending a hot signal over the line and this will minimize the noise floor but it will also be hot and may overload the input. If you pad it down you may reduce the noise floor a bit but the -10dBV input will have to rebuild the gain if it goes further to another +4dBu device and the noise will likely return at the next stage. This section from Mike says it all about your situation. Your mixer and card are lower end "prosumer" (not to negate their usefullness) so running +4 into +4 is your "best" choice - but I would go by what I hear! The whole balanced/XLR/TRS thing doesn't really have anything to do with it, other than that these are heavier connectors more commonly used in better gear - so the gear is usually running at +4. However, a microphone (XLR male) doesn't output anywhere near -10 (let alone +4) so the connector doesn't always tell the tale of output. Brian
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g_randybrown
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really...I never thought of the Delta 1010 being a lower end prosumer card (especially considering what I paid for it) but your advice is well taken.
Thanks very much,
Randy
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Stone House Studios
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g_randybrown
really...I never thought of the Delta 1010 being a lower end prosumer card (especially considering what I paid for it) but your advice is well taken.
Thanks very much,
Randy
Ha Ha - I think of any device under $700 or so to be lower end! I'm a proud "low end" guy myself! Brian
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Jeff Evans
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It is best to match levels where possible. If you use the output of your soundcard at +4dbu just make sure the input it is feeding is happy with +4dbu.
There is one area that should be considered and that is the distance over which a signal may have to travel. I would rather send a +4 dbu balanced signal over 10 or 20 meters of cable rather than an unbalanced -10dbv level signal. Distances can get quite long in a studio (eg on insert points of a mixer channel) if you start taking into account patch panels and patching in processors etc. This was one reason why 0dbu was pushed up +4db as well in pro situations. 0db on a meter should actually send 0.775v but many manufacturers don't do it, except I had a Tascam mixer for a while that actually delivered 0.775V at 0dbu on its meter so they do exist.
But if the distances are short then it is less of a concern too. But it still best to match levels where possible.
Where myths may abound is the sound quality of +4db is better. That is not true. I have produced work on both systems and to the same quality end result. It is just that in one mixing console the nominal channel level may be different to another. Consoles that use a ref of -10dbv in their channels have higher headroom but that level is closer to the noise floor. But many modern mixers can keep the noise floor right down now so it is less of an issue. Mixers that use a +4dbu channel nominal level have to work much harder to add 15 or 20 db of headroom to that hence the expensse of bigger consoles.
It is not a bad idea to read the specs of your mixing console and see what levels are being sent from what outputs and what all the input sensitivities are. And if you cannot find them, then a test with an oscillator and true rms reading voltmeter will tell a lot too.
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VictoryStudio
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To put it short as I understand it:
-10dB is for unbalanced signal
+4dB is for balanced signal
Might be wrong, worked for my Focusrite Trakmaster...
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Stone House Studios
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VictoryStudio
To put it short as I understand it:
-10dB is for unbalanced signal
+4dB is for balanced signal
Might be wrong, worked for my Focusrite Trakmaster...
Balanced is a different thing than level. Balanced is a noise reduction technique. Brian
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Somerset
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Stone House Studios
VictoryStudio
To put it short as I understand it:
-10dB is for unbalanced signal
+4dB is for balanced signal
Might be wrong, worked for my Focusrite Trakmaster...
Balanced is a different thing than level. Balanced is a noise reduction technique.
Brian
It's true that "balanced" is a noise reduction technique as mentioned by Brian. It's also true that +4dB is a noise reduction technique, and ideally both techniques should be used together over longer distances as has already been mentioned by others. The additional signal level of +4db will assist in greater signal to noise ratio (possibly at the expense of reduced headroom). The longer a signal path is, the more likely it will pick up induced voltages ("noise" "glitches" "hum") and so we want to overpower the noise by making the signal level higher (by using +4 db instead of -10 db). The balanced technique also helps to eliminate noise, by actually cancelling out the induced noise signal. The theory is that because the 2 signal wires (inside the balanced cable) carrying the + and - versions of the signal are in very close proximity, they will pick up the same induced noise signal and consequently when the + & - signals are processed at the destination end (in a differential amplifier in the pre-amps) the induced cable noise will tend to cancel, and the true signal will be re-inforced. Over shorter distances it is less beneficial to worry about +4, or balanced. Make sure to match the signal formats at both ends as already mentioned by others. Cliff
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Hawky
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I had a 1010LT once and I think inputs 1 and 2 were XLR or balanced. Also, there was a switch on the card to change it to +4 db.
Hawky
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