TexasMusicForge
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Theatrical performance and Sonar
I've written and recorded a score for King Lear and have now been called on to perform it live. Since I used Sonar (Producer 8) and Dimension Pro for almost all of the writing and recording work, I'd like to try using Sonar for the first time in a live setting. I'm planning on using a laptop, Focusrite USB audio/MIDI breakout box and a MIDI keyboard. I have approximately 60 sound cues during the play using Dimension for both music and many SFX cues and generally have 30 seconds to 3 minutes between cues to change setup.
My question: Is it most efficient to create a different Cakewalk project for each cue so that I can call up the particular Dimension and effects presets with each project? Is there a better way to organize this? Any other professional theatrical musical directors on this forum who can offer suggestions for how you've integrated Sonar into a live production? I'm all ears and thanks in advance for any input.
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Guitarhacker
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Re:Theatrical performance and Sonar
2011/03/22 16:40:31
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I would burn the cues to a CD or 2 and place each on a different track. That is the safest way to do it live.
To rely on a computer and patches in the midst of a live show is not my idea of a good time.
A CD will hold up to 80 minutes of music with as many tracks as you need.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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TexasMusicForge
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Re:Theatrical performance and Sonar
2011/03/22 16:56:04
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Thanks for the input. Plans were for a sound tech to run a CD of recorded cues - what I originally signed on for. Director now likes the idea of a live musician to better match cues to the actions onstage and I certainly agree it will make for a better production - assuming I can make it all work somehow. I'm hoping to do a combination of live playing and live playing over recorded music for some cues which are impossible for two hands to play. To make everything especially hazardous, the production opens in Houston and closes somewhere in Eastern Europe, so I have to have all equipment as self-contained as possible. Not hazardous enough yet? I'm planning to do all this with Focusrite breakout box and MIDI keyboard running on the laptop battery via USB and sending signal to battery-powered amplification due to all the differing voltages and the fact that at least one medieval castle in the Czech Republic we'll be playing has no electricity available. Venues with an actual sound system and tech I can run a line out from the Focusrite and save the amp for monitoring.
post edited by TexasMusicForge - 2011/03/22 17:01:11
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{8}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} Ed Kliman Writer, Musician, Publisher at Large www.TexasMusicForge.com Written, musical and electronic communications for a changing world... {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{8}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
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kev11111111111111
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Re:Theatrical performance and Sonar
2011/03/22 17:18:04
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Guitarhacker
I would burn the cues to a CD or 2 and place each on a different track. That is the safest way to do it live.
To rely on a computer and patches in the midst of a live show is not my idea of a good time.
A CD will hold up to 80 minutes of music with as many tracks as you need.
+1 CD is the way to go :) Kev
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kev11111111111111
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Re:Theatrical performance and Sonar
2011/03/22 17:19:58
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TexasMusicForge
Thanks for the input. Plans were for a sound tech to run a CD of recorded cues - what I originally signed on for. Director now likes the idea of a live musician to better match cues to the actions onstage and I certainly agree it will make for a better production - assuming I can make it all work somehow. I'm hoping to do a combination of live playing and live playing over recorded music for some cues which are impossible for two hands to play.
To make everything especially hazardous, the production opens in Houston and closes somewhere in Eastern Europe, so I have to have all equipment as self-contained as possible. Not hazardous enough yet? I'm planning to do all this with Focusrite breakout box and MIDI keyboard running on the laptop battery via USB and sending signal to battery-powered amplification due to all the differing voltages and the fact that at least one medieval castle in the Czech Republic we'll be playing has no electricity available. Venues with an actual sound system and tech I can run a line out from the Focusrite and save the amp for monitoring.
Good luck !! Sounds exciting, Kev
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TexasMusicForge
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Re:Theatrical performance and Sonar
2011/03/22 17:21:40
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Again, thanks for the input, but I'm actively seeking good advice for how to do this live.
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Guitarhacker
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Re:Theatrical performance and Sonar
2011/03/22 20:51:43
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Man, I will say this is possible to do, but doing it on the cheap, as you appear to be attempting..... battery power.... isn't especially appetizing, or the best way to do an international show.
I know it's probably not in the budget but to do it right.... I'm thinking along the lines of the Cirque du Solei shows... they are all live musicians, playing all sorts of instruments and synths....you would need to have some talented musicians AND stage actors to hit the cues dead on.... watch one of the cirque shows and you'll see what I am talking about. Not easy but possible..... the CD is still the easy way to do this.
If you can handle all the playing, and get the synths changed it's possible.
I think you can set up a number of projects in Cake..... number the projects. And hope and pray that the OS and the system is ROCK SOLID..... because you don't want or need a crash or a glitch on the computer as the next cue is loading 45 seconds before the cue is due to be played.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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kev11111111111111
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Re:Theatrical performance and Sonar
2011/03/23 03:51:52
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I would think about using a keyboard workstation ?! Then you can play live and you're guarenteed a stable,glitch free sound.Some workstations can store WAVs too so I would say thats the best option.
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LpMike75
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Re:Theatrical performance and Sonar
2011/03/23 04:02:46
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If not the CD option, maybe atleast mix the cues down separately to wave files. Then import them all into one project and line up the individual cues in the timeline - in the order you want them.
You may have to manually start and stop when you need, but atleast they are in one project and you dont have to worry about softsynth crashes, pc overload from too many synths open..etc.
Congradulations on the gig and good luck, sounds like you have some non-musical challenges
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Guitarhacker
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Re:Theatrical performance and Sonar
2011/03/23 08:04:05
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I'm not up to speed on keyboard workstations, but Kev makes a good point. A top of the line synth work station that will do that would be worth the investment, and budget wise.... it's not a bank breaker.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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Beagle
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Re:Theatrical performance and Sonar
2011/03/23 08:42:40
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Ed - which version of sonar are you using? sonar has a "set list" feature, or at least it did with 8.5 and below, I haven't looked for it in X1. the set list feature would allow you to save each project independently each with its own presets already set up for dimension, etc and you could call up each project independently using the set list.
set list is basically just a pointer to call individual projects in an order you specify.
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TexasMusicForge
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Re:Theatrical performance and Sonar
2011/03/23 10:45:56
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Thanks, Beagle, for the "set list" mention - I'll look into it. That's the kind of well-informed and practical advice I was hoping for from this esteemed forum's denizens. Also appreciate the workstation advice from Guitarhacker and kev - there is a good gear rental house in Austin I'm going to check out for available options. Good advice.
As for the well-intentioned "doing it on the cheap" comment, the main reason to use battery power - as clearly stated - is due to the wide range of US and European power variables (or even complete absence of power in at least one venue) we'll be working under, although I'll also plead guilty to us having a much smaller production budget to work with than "Spiderman" has. We're working mostly medieval castles in Europe with 220 volt power and wiring of unknown quality. I'm concerned about voltage surges or fluctuations playing havoc with software programs and would prefer to just avoid potential disasters wherever possible as I've got enough to worry over with just performing King Lear and As You Like It.
Touring rock bands are better-equipped to deal with these kind of situations. Us? We've got 22 actors (half of 'em from Europe), 6 stage manager/director/tech types and a one man band on the tour, so most of what budget we've got (approximately $50,000 of it, anyway) is going to airfare, salaries and lodging before we even make a dime. Not much left over for the one man band portion of the circus to play with.
Any other suggestions appropriate to this particular situation would be deeply appreciated. Any other professional musical directors out there?
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{8}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} Ed Kliman Writer, Musician, Publisher at Large www.TexasMusicForge.com Written, musical and electronic communications for a changing world... {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{8}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
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AT
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Re:Theatrical performance and Sonar
2011/03/23 14:21:43
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Ed,
it might be the long way around but you could program multiple instances of Dimension with 4 sound cues apieces and assign each of those (via SFZ) to one note on your keyboard. I'm not sure how many your system could handle at once, but you should be able to fit quite a few. These would work for shorter sounds, but not for "music" running underneath entire scenes.
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http://www.bnoir-film.com/ there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
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tunekicker
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Re:Theatrical performance and Sonar
2011/03/25 00:07:10
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+1 to doing this with a CD.
If you want to try in Sonar I would bounce all items to wave files as playing audio is more stable than getting a soft-synth to do it. You could use the Matrix view and load each cue as a one shot. Would be easy that way.
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TexasMusicForge
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Re:Theatrical performance and Sonar
2011/03/26 07:33:25
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Ran my first rehearsal with Sonar on laptop and ran into a combination of needing to reload drivers for the Focusrite to get Sonar to recognize it and a fairly clunky and awkward routine when trying to access needed files between some closely-spaced sound cues. This obviously is not going to get the job done for me.
I rented a Korg M50 workstation yesterday which will do everything I need except let me work with the excellent sounds in the Dimension. Much as I love working in Sonar, it stays in the home studio from now on and I'll work with the sounds resident on the Korg where I can quickly and securely switch between songs, sounds and setups and create cue lists for use during performance.
Thanks again to all who posted.
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{8}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} Ed Kliman Writer, Musician, Publisher at Large www.TexasMusicForge.com Written, musical and electronic communications for a changing world... {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{8}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
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Guitarhacker
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Re:Theatrical performance and Sonar
2011/03/26 08:38:02
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I remember reading the story of the Nitty Gritty Dirt bands tour of Europe and the Soviet Union. They were the first American band to play the USSR after the USSR opened it's borders a bit.
The main thing they faced was the wide and fluctuating voltages in Europe and the USSR. IIRC in Russia they were running the show in a near brown out condition, severely under voltage, but the Peavy Amps were troopers and plugged on the whole show. (power amps and stage amps)
They did have voltage regulation equipment but that stuff can only do so much.... good luck.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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