Loading GPO4 into existing midi track

I have existing Sibelius midi tracks I've imported into Sonar.  I can load a TTS 1 synth (which by default has mostly funny sounding keyboards in each track which then reproduce my Sib. trks of brass, strgs, etc.), but I don't see how to change the default instr.s to something else - if that's even what I'm supposed to do to get the tracks to produce the right sounds.

Here's my (faulty?) concept of what needs to be done: since my midi tracks are not sound, each track needs to be routed to a synth that HAS the sounds I want loaded (GPO4) into each corresponding track (midi track 8 from Sib. to track 8) in the TTS 1 synth.   Is that even the right basic concept?

Can anyone give me the "simple" basic steps to do this - load my various GPO 4 sounds into my existing Sibelius midi tracks?  I'm sure this is basic stuff, but I can't wrap my mind around it - even to do a SEARCH for how to do it (couldn't find where to look even in the new X1 book from Garrigus) - I don't know how to ask the right questions to bring up the info I need.   Nothing I've tried has worked. Is it in fact a very convoluted, and difficult (for a novice) process?  Thanks!

Thanks, Randy!  So many responses are one sentence, assuming you know much more you do - than I do, for sure (not a criticism, just a reality).  I have now read Tutorial 4, and then inserted a soft synth (Aria).  As I begin to tackle this, when you say "...and you'll need to insert the same number of Audio tracks to hook them up to Aria", do I understand that for each existing midi trk I've imported, right below it (or wherever) will be it's sound trk?  Then:  I go out of my midi trk, into Aria, out of aria, and into the audio trk?  And then the same for each of the other midi trks?  And do I have just one instance (track) of Aria, not one for each midi track?

I'll stop here (too many questions at one time).

Randy,

I really appreciate all your time and help.  I'm off to work now, and out of town tomorrow.  I'll be spending a lot of time with your info.  One unrelated question.  So far I've been able to go right to my stuff by clicking on Subscriptions, but this time this whole thread was gone.  After a search failed (using my thread title), I then did find it by scrolling thru the new posts.  I was afraid all was lost.  I have made a copy of everything to date.  Do you have any idea why this happened, and how to avoid it (happened once before).

Thanks again.

Dave 
djayers1@gmail.com (just in case)

Thanks.  Back in a couple days.

djayers1


Hi Randy,

Just so you'll have some idea who you're working with, I'm a published writer/arr. with a degree in theory/comp., taught instr. music in 4th grade thru HS, toured for 9 years playing and arranging, free lanced on bone several years in Chi, Det., and Atlanta, and continue as a free lance writer.  It has been hard for me to bend my mind to electronics, but after much effort I've gotten where Sibelius is a very effective tool, and hope to do the same with Sonar.  I know there are very obvious things that confound me in this area, and I just hope you'll be patient as I work through this.  You've already been very helpful - and thorough!


There are so many areas that I get stuck that I thought maybe more frequent but shorter lists of questions would be best.  Here's where I am:

To review, I have a Sib. midi file I have loaded into Sonar.  I then load Aria in it's own track, and finally an audio track for the midi track to play thru (and each successive midi trk with also have it's own audio trk).

The first trk is trumpet.  In it's side pane I left "I" alone, and selected Aria in "O".  I then went to Aria, scrolled thru ens. until I found a trump, selected it and left 1/2 as it was.  I then went to the audio track and in I selected aria 1/2, and in O chose Omega (my sound card).  To my amazement it would play IF I chose "solo" (?), but it sounded like a horn.  So I went back in Aaria and changed the horn's 1/2 to another trk, and the trumpet to 1/2, but still got a horn sound.  I'm thinking I was supposed to assign the trumpet to that channel (slot) in Aria, but as I went to other instruments it's slot would change to new instr.s.

Later I went to my string midi trk and did the same process.  The strings have stayed strings, but I haven't moved away from that sound in Aria yet.  (I'm trying to give you enough to follow my [faulty] logic).

Is there an easier way to "scroll thru the libray of sounds/ensembles (a drop down list?) rather than painfully clicking the arrows at the right of the ens. or instr.?

To summarize: When I choose my instr., the wrong one (sometimes) shows up in the track, and if I choose another instr., the first changes also.

In the sound track, when I choose Aria for "I", I should choose the corresponding 1/2, 3/4, or whatever) for the instrument I want and have chosen in Aria (with the same 1/2 or whatever) - right?

Enough for now.  I'll try to be shorter.  Thanks again!

Dave

Hi, Dave - Good to hear from you.  And thanks for the bio sketch of your background.  Nice!

Here's the error you're making - When you click "Ensemble," that automatically loads all the instruments for whatever group of instruments, the ensemble you've chosen.  If you've chosen "Woodwind Quintet," for instance, five instruments will be set up for you.  That's a quick and easy way to load up standard instrumentation configurations when you're starting a new piece from scratch in Sonar.

For what you're doing, you should click in the individual instrument windows.  And yes, you need to click the arrow and go through the menu to select what you want.

EDIT:  IMPORTANT correction - When you said "click the arrow" I didn't think about it enough.  No, that's not the way to do it.  You click on the black window that initially says "empty."  That's when you'll get the cascading menu, with all the instruments logically laid out by family.  The arrows are for going backwards and forwards from the starting point you choose-so you could step through all the Clarinets, for instance, once you've chosen one in the first place.

Workflow suggestion:  Do one thing at a time.  Fill up your instance of Aria with all the instruments you need.  The MIDI Channels are already set up 1 through 16.  Next step, go through and choose different outs for each instrument.  Third step, work in Sonar, adding tracks and directing them to and from Aria accordingly.  It will make the process less confusing.

Otherwise, it sounds like you're doing things correctly.

Randy

djayers1


That "edit" is good news!  Thanks.

HI, Dave - Yes, I'm glad I woke up more after writing the post, and realized you weren't clicking in the "empty" space to get the instrument menu.

The problem of instruments changing after you've selected them -I think that's because you were choosing ensembles instead of individual instruments.  Once you've chosen an instrument, it's not going to change.

Randy B.

djayers1


I've decided I'm going to start fresh...reload my midi trks and go from there.  I'll take notes each step of the way what I'm doing, and what's confusing.

That's a good plan, Dave - I'll look for when you post the notes.  Hopefully I'll spot something so I can pass on more info.

Randy B.

djayers1


Before I get going on "starting from scratch" again, having inserted Aria and then selecting "All synth audio outputs", each audio track seems to have it's own instance of Aria, and has a different icon (midi over a keyboard?) than just adding one track at a time does (with a wave form icon).  Are these really several Aria's - one in each track, or just multiple accesses to the same one?  Would it be simpler at this point for me to stay with adding them one by one and worry about that later?

Also, my 1st imported midi trk goes in say channel one to Aria's first slot (containing first instr. - also in channel 1), and it's instr. has a stereo signal (1/2) that also goes out channel one and in to the audio track In - still channel one.  The next track is in channel 2 and in the same way this travels thru to the audio track channel as did my first track above - but now the instrument's stereo signal in this channel is 3/4.  Since each instrument goes out to audio in stereo in it's own channel, why is it necessary to have consecutive numbering (3/4, 5/6, etc.) which results in 32 in 16 tracks.  Why can't each channel just have it's own 1/2 (1/2 of ch. 1, 1/2 of ch. 2, 1/2 of ch. 3, etc.)?  This probably seems like a dumb question, but I'm hoping this will reveal some error in  my thinking.

Thanks!

Hello again, Dave

When you select "All synth audio outputs," all the resulting tracks are connected to that one instance of Aria - not to separate Arias.  The icons indicate those are audio tracks dedicated to a synth.  When you insert audio tracks one by one from scratch, they have the audio icon at first, but the icon changes once the tracks are connected to Aria.

Why is it necessary to have each track on consecutive numbers?  Because those are the 16 discreet audio channels coming out of Aria.  There's no such thing as a sub-division of numbering inside a channel - 1/2 through 31/32 are the 16 separate audio tracks.  See?

I'm wondering if you've licked the problem of instruments changing after you've selected them.  Just remember to click on the black "empty" windows, not on the Ensemble window at the upper left corner of Aria, unless you want to load a pre-packaged group of instruments.

Thanks for the update.

Randy

djayers1


OK, 2 audio tracks inside a channel.

I thought that when you inserted Aria (which then looked like another track) that that's what you would then click to open the mixer, but apparently you can click on any of it's audio tracks as well (more instances of access).  But as you say, that is the same instance - still only one Aria.  Also, I hadn't noticed that the icon changes on Aria's audio trks.

I don't think the instr.s change anymore.

I keep getting interrupted from my project, but hope to get a couple hours this aft.   I just wanted to have a couple of these "ducks in a row" first.

A stereo track has two channels, left and right.  Hence 32 mono channels in Aria which are divided into 16 stereo pairs.

I can't follow what you're saying about inserting Aria, clicking to open a mixer--?---etc.  But as long as you're making progress, that's a good deal.

Randy B.

Hi, Dave - I'm trying to follow you.  I have a copy of your post, I'll have your text in italics:

To answer your question, when I insert a soft synth (Aria), it puts it (Aria Player) below my last (bottom) track, and displays the "mixer" (or whatever it's called - ?) with the instr. slots.  I can close this "mixer" (or I guess I should be saying Synth.?), and then open it again by clicking on the icon (that looks like a keyboard) at the left of the Aria Player "Track".  

That isn't Aria you're talking about - That's the one MIDI track which was inserted when you asked for Aria to be inserted in the project.  It's set up to MIDI channel One by default.  You'll be inserting 15 more MIDI tracks, each directed to a different MIDI channel.

Aria itself is in the synth tab of the Browser (used to be in the Synth Rack in previous Sonars).

You can open it either from the Browser, or by clicking the MIDI icon, as you said.

The mixer you're talking about - that's Aria open to its default first window.  You get to the other views with the tabs on the right, Controls, Effects, Settings.  You'll need to work with those once you have instruments loaded.

I load a fresh set of Sib. midi tracks (my project)

May as well save this project in Sonar, even though you're not totally set up.  There's no advantage to bringing the Sib. tracks in each time.

I go to Insert and add a soft synth - Aria Player with All Synth Audio Outputs checked in the box.
Then I go to my 1st track (#1 - trumpet) and click on “I” (IN) in the “SENDS” on the left (there are 2 Sends with sliders) and choose None (because the midi trk I imported is the source; if I were playing in from a controller for examp., I would click that);
Then I clik on O (Out) and choose Aria.

That's fine.  You can also insert Aria from the Browser under the Synth tab.

Those aren't "Sends"-- Might as well reserve that word for what people are referring to when they use the word Sends - Those are what you use to split off part of an audio signal to go to a bus with a reverb unit in its FX bin, for instance.

After you choose the MIDI track to be directed to Aria, you need to then click the C button in that same area of the track header, and choose what MIDI channel you want that track to be on. 

Now I go to Aria, clik on the KB icon and the synth opens,
Click on the black bar that says Empty, and choose my instrument – trump. - from the drop-dn menues;
Close the synth, again go the the left “sends” of the 2 and click I, Select track input, and choose “1 trump.”

You don't need to keep closing the sampler/synth.  Keep it open towards the right part of your screen so you can do this setting up more easily.

I don't know what you mean by "go to the left 'sends' of the 2."  Are you talking about a MIDI track or an Audio track--?  I can't tell.  And you don't choose an instrument name in the headers, you choose the MIDI channel on a MIDI track, you choose which pair of stereo outs you need for an audio track.

On the audio tracks - click the In window, move down the pop-up menu to Aria, then a long menu will open up, and that's where you choose the stereo outs in Aria.

And don't forget as you load your instruments in Aria, you need to give them all different audio outs.

Then in same "Sends" choose O and click Audio Out and select Omega ASIO Out Left (my sound card) - is this correct?

You should have a master fader that is part of the default project file in Sonar.  You direct the audio outs to the Master - the master is sent to your sound card.

Have you gone through tutorial #4--?  Yes, I remember you did that.  It covers all this - I'm not sure you learned the basic concept of using soft synths---.

I'm gettin' sweaty!--this makes it all sound so hard!  lol.

I think you're getting there - Some unclear things in your post though, sorry.

Randy

djayers1


Randy,

For now I'm just scanning thru this quick to answer a couple questions:

My point of the "fresh Sib tracs" was just in this "fresh start from scratch" to make sure I hadn't messed up the first ones I had loaded and experimented with.  No, I wouldn't load new ones every time.

That makes sense...they are all audio tracs, and each has the icon to access Aria (which then opens at the same time as the track(s) are inserted..

The "Sends" I refer to (that term sounds funny even to me) are what ever the two things at the left (did I say right?) are that have the In and Outs - where I choose what's going where.  So I referred to the left one of the two I see there.  What are they called?  Is one of them the Master Fader?

I realize now I didn't "give them all audio outs".  I thought I did with the trumpet (only did one trac so far).  Not clear where/how to do that?  You're talking about out of Aria, and into the audio trac?

I'll review tutorial 4 now that I've struggled thru all this...maybe it'll make more sense now.  And yes, I "think [I'm] getting there".  I feel like I can see the light at the end of the tunnel.  I think if I can get this laid out in step by step form correctly and in detail - like I did above (the form - with your corrections and guidance) I'll be able to do it.  I'm a very black and white person, and I haven't seen anywhere that it is laid out in a clear (to me, at least) step by step process  - where it's not assumed one knows more than he does (which most probably do know - I realize I'm a computer clod).  What about taking my steps (and the way I'm going thru them) with your corrections/additions, and complete my list?  Maybe when we get done with this (soon!, for your sake I hope) we can post the final product for others struggling with this - or maybe I'm the only one!

Thanks,
Dave

Hi, Dave - Hoping a visual aid will help, I've made a little video capture for you.  It's crude, drop frame, jerky, and silent.  It shows full screen X1 as I start a new project, import a multi-track MIDI file, then open Aria up and start setting up instruments and their tracks in Sonar.

In the vid I go through setting up just the first instrument, but setting up the other tracks would involve the exact process of course.

Follow the cursor as best you can, and see if it helps:

Aria and MIDI

--And the windows in the track header where you direct the signal flow are just called - the i/os - the Ins/Outs.  No, that's not where the Master fader is.  The Master is a bus.  It should be where your audio tracks go to in the default Sonar project.

Randy

djayers1


Randy,

The video is a good idea...I've watched it a couple times, and will poor over it more.  The thought occurred to me that this may be taking WAY more time than you have to give.  If at some point you you need to pull back, take a break, or bail out all together (I know this takes time, and you've got plenty of your own things to do), I won't be offended.  You've already gone way beyond what could be asked for.

The mouse is hard to follow in a few places, and your screen seems to look different than mine sometimes - the I/Os for example...in a drop down in the track view, with mine being 2 tall columns to the left of the track view.  In any case, I'll go thru this point by point and make notes.  Off to my wife's second grade class production!  More later.

Dave

Your wife's in the second grade?!  What country do you live in ---?? 

You're my current pet project.  It's fine for me to break away now and then and spend a couple more minutes trying to get you on track.  Some folks here would probably say it's high time I say "RTFM"-- (read the fun manual) - but I don't think anybody ever figures anything out from only reading a manual.  Some visuals aids, some tips from someone with more experience - that's also needed.  So, no problem, let's get you to making music again.

Naturally I was hoping the vid I threw together this morning would be the Open Sesame.  It did occur to me later that you might not understand that what you see is my customization of X1.  Most people aren't using it just as it comes--A major thing to do is set up Screensets.  I have Panup's color modifications too, which make everything look different.

But the Screenset you see at first is my first one.  The Browser is collapsed off to the right.  My Inspector is collapsed off screen to the left.

AND this is where a major misunderstanding has been coming from.  Finally I understand that you've been talking about the Inspectors.  Those are the "2 tall columns." - I keep those off-screen because I never use them while setting up a project.  I use them later when mixing.

The Inspector and the Track Headers have some of the same information.  I'm so used to previous versions of Sonar where most of concentrated on working in the Track Headers.  What you see in my video - recognize those boxes at the start of the track that I'm working in?  Doing exactly as you see me do in the video will get you going.  But you could also do the setting up in the Inspectors -I think it's more confusing though.

Here are screen shots.  The first one show the Inspector for an audio track which has been connected to Aria.  I put in an arrow where you can see the identical windows are found in both the Inspector and in the Track Header.

The second shot shows a MIDI inspector - I've drawn two arrows to show you where the corresponding menus are in the Track Header.

Now - that Has to clear a lot of things up.  Sorry if I made anything more confusing than it needed to be.





Randy B.

djayers1


Randy,

Major progress today.  I found a step I somehow was missing every time ("...you need to then click the C button in that same area of the track header, and choose what MIDI channel you want that track to be on..."), and once I did that everything seems to be working.  The other major thing I couldn't get thru my head was that when I added an ARIA synth, to me it looked like it was in the form (appearance of) another track - but with an ARIA icon.  But that was just the audio track with the icon to access ARIA.  Consequently I was doing a step that didn't exist:  that is, I would go into that audio track, thinking somehow I'm in a part of ARIA where I was supposed to set In and Outs for ARIA, set the I/Os (and the choices I had there of course didn't make any sense), then I would go to yet another audio track that I thought I was directing ARIA to...you see the confusion (I hope).

I'm still herky jerky and and inconsistent, but I'm very encouraged.  Must go today, but will work thru the week end when I can, and see if I can get more efficient.  I'll let you know my progress.

Dave

Thanks for the update, Dave

Yes, I thought you were missing the step of assigning MIDI channels to the MIDI tracks in Sonar.  Makes sense, I'm sure you now see - the tracks have to match the MIDI channels in Aria in order for the correct instrument to be played by each track.

The confusion over thinking Aria itself was on the track - I'm pretty sure you're talking about the MIDI track which is getting inserted when you insert an Aria instance, not an audio track.  The MIDI track has the keyboard icon which you can click to open the Aria instance. 

Sonar will insert 16 audio tracks for you, already hooked up to Aria.  But it will insert just one MIDI track.  That track is set up to be connected to Aria on MIDI channel one.  If you were building a project from scratch, you would be inserting more MIDI tracks just like that one, but getting in to set up the MIDI channels and the connections to Aria.

Importing Sib projects as you're doing, of course you don't need that inserted MIDI track and you don't need to add more.  You just need to edit the ins and outs of all the imported tracks.

Remember that when you insert Aria and you've asked for all audio outs - those audio tracks are already set up for you, connected to Aria.

Randy B.