Slugbaby
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Whining
I'm going to climb back on my well-work soapbox here for a second. After reading some of Carissa's "the demeanor here..." thread that's been going on for years, I'm getting frustrated. But everytime I'm about to weigh in, I would end up ruining someone's good joke or just interrupting the vibe. There are nice users here, and there are not-nice users here. Some are helpful, and some are not, and they're not divided by their level of courtesy. When I started using this forum 8 years ago, i knew nothing about digital recording. I had experience as a musician in a studio, but didn't know much about engineering and production. At the time, I learned A TON of information from Papa2004 and Daveny5, two users who i've seen criticized for being curt and hurtful. To the point where Papa gave up on this forum and disappeared. These guys (and a few others i've forgotten) were here to learn new techniques as well as impart a heck of a lot of knowledge. But they didn't seem to want to help lazy people. The ones who wouldn't think of 'trial and error' or R'ing the FM. And i think those two suggestions are the most important techniques one can have when learning a skill like this. Neither of these guys made personal attacks at me for my stupid questions, nor did i see them made at others. Just comments like "RTFM" or "you spent $400 on a program, spend another $100 on the hardware you need. Don't blame Cakewalk because your soundcard is insufficient." Both of those paraphrased comments are absolutely fair in my mind. Other users, like Beagle and Bitflipper, have given just as much support and information. They're generally friendlier, a little softer-spoken maybe. Their contributions have probably taken more work, as they seem to pay more attention to how their advice might be misconstrued. They seem to avoid 'RTFM comments' and do a little more spoon-feeding. But that's THEIR choice, this is a VOLUNTARY forum - being more careful in your words, and trying (too) hard to spare feelings, is more work for the same information to be passed. And to be honest, if you can't handle blunt comments you'll never make it in a cruel business like "Entertainment." I want to thank everyone that gives solid advice on these forums. I've learned a lot about how to express my artistic side, and I don't know where I'd be if I didn't have music to release my fears and frustrations. That goes for those people that have told me bluntly where I'm going wrong, and also to those that held my hand. But really, if you're going to get upset or angry because someone called you on your expecting others to do your work for you (RTFM or 'try it and see'), you're just setting yourself up for failure anyway. Writing, performing, engineering, production, mixing and mastering are all unique talents that take years to learn properly (often with formal education). There's no 'EASY' button to make your entry-level project sound radio-ready. RTFM, try your ideas and see if they work. If they don't, i hope you made a backup. And be greatful for the advice you've been given here, whether it's worded carefully or not. Because 30 years ago there were no internet forums to learn - you had to actually give up your day job and apprentice at a studio if you were lucky enough to get the chance! Off my soapbox now, to say that this is only my opinion.
post edited by Slugbaby - 2011/04/02 10:13:32
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Jonbouy
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Talk about curt I remember a response from this guy once...  ...never again.
post edited by Jonbouy - 2011/04/02 10:47:26
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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The Maillard Reaction
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He was always in a Rushel... sometimes curt just means you are pressed for time.
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Katie_Katie
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mike_mccue
He was always in a Rushel... sometimes curt just means you are pressed for time.
I think you went a little Overboard with that comment Mike.
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SteveStrummerUK
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Matt, I think some of your points are valid. In fact, the only thing I disagree with is your tolerance of rudeness. If you want to help someone, just do so, there's no value whatsoever in telling someone to RTM - why not just pass onto the next question? I mean, have you ever seen a detailed reply by any of the guys you mention - CJ, Papa2004 or Daveny5? I mean a really detailed reply, maybe with screenshots, and a follow up answer or two to make certain the message has got through? I've seen all these things from guys like Beagle, and on a personal level, some of the stuff RobertB has posted made an immeasurable difference to the way I now understand this great world of home recording. In point of fact, I've seen Bob walk others through a problem in 'real time' - post by post until a solution is found. I've no doubt whatsoever that the three guys you mention possess a vast knowledge of the software (and associated hardware), but often the manner in which they share this knowledge can appear a little demeaning and dare I say, arrogant. I guess I was lucky when I started to have guys of the calibre of Beag and Bob, and my old pals Doc, James and Randy (who all used to regularly frequent the Guitar Tracks forum) on my case. Nothing seemed to be too much trouble when it came to helping out the complete newb I was then. Coupled with other (non-GT specific) advice I gleaned from the Music Creator forum from guys like Rob(omusic) Greg, and Herb, I really started to get a handle on this stuff. But in my opinion, the one great advantage of advising and helping others in this way is that first it engenders a feeling of 'belonging' and even friendship, and secondly, because this attitude makes one feel welcome and happy to hang around, the newer guys are more likely to impart their new-found knowledge to others... and so the cycle continues. My overall feelings about these forums are positive, I just don't understand why some people have to sometimes behave like jerks, just because they know more about something than someone else. I mean let's be honest here, if the manuals we're instructed to read were so good, we wouldn't need a forum in the first place, would we? Steve Edit for clarity.
post edited by SteveStrummerUK - 2011/04/02 11:41:34
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The Maillard Reaction
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Katie_Katie
mike_mccue
He was always in a Rushel... sometimes curt just means you are pressed for time.
I think you went a little Overboard with that comment Mike.
Maybe I spoke too soon?
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57Gregy
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Hey, I got an honorable mention. Nice to know those 8,000+ posts weren't for naught.
Thanks, Strummer.
Bayoubill, too.
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marcos69
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I tend to look at it as a 2 way street. You don't have to be rude and tell someone to RTFM, you could just pass by that post. On the other hand if that is the advice given to you, you don't have to take offense, you can just pass by that answer. No one can make you feel bad. That's a decision you make on your own.
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bapu
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Katie_Katie
mike_mccue
He was always in a Rushel... sometimes curt just means you are pressed for time.
I think you went a little Overboard with that comment Mike.
Probably did not have time to consider his thoughts as he was planning an Escape from New York at the time.
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marcos69
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bapu
Katie_Katie
mike_mccue
He was always in a Rushel... sometimes curt just means you are pressed for time.
I think you went a little Overboard with that comment Mike.
Probably did not have time to consider his thoughts as he was planning an Escape from New York at the time.
On his way to Tombstone no doubt.
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bapu
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marcos69
bapu
Katie_Katie
mike_mccue
He was always in a Rushel... sometimes curt just means you are pressed for time.
I think you went a little Overboard with that comment Mike.
Probably did not have time to consider his thoughts as he was planning an Escape from New York at the time.
On his way to Tombstone no doubt.
Well, here's The Thing. He may have called Hawaii Five-O on Elvis or Harry O but the Grindhouse his dream of choice is Vanilla Sky.
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Ham N Egz
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Another thread where the OP starts out pouring out his heart and soul and it gets derailed with un-funnyness... this place is beginning to turn into the coffee house ...  Never mind,,, I though I was in the Songs Forum!!! Carry On....
Green Acres is the place to be I dont twitter, facebook, snapchat, instagram,linkedin,tumble,pinterest,flick, blah blah,lets have an old fashioned conversation!
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rhynosynth
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I'm bi-whining. I whine here. I whine there. Now what?
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marcos69
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bapu
marcos69
bapu
Katie_Katie
mike_mccue
He was always in a Rushel... sometimes curt just means you are pressed for time.
I think you went a little Overboard with that comment Mike.
Probably did not have time to consider his thoughts as he was planning an Escape from New York at the time.
On his way to Tombstone no doubt.
Well, here's The Thing. He may have called Hawaii Five-O on Elvis or Harry O but the Grindhouse his dream of choice is Vanilla Sky.
Well, it'd be a Miracle for him to be more of a Soldier. I hope Captain Ron doesn't find out about his Unlawful Entry. There's still a lot of Backdraft about that. Then there's the time he had some Big Trouble in Little China. Those weren't the Best of Times. It was a Mean Season. He might have to go back to selling Used Cars. Sometimes I think he's the Strongest Man in the World.
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rhynosynth
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At first I thought this thread was Foul Play then I realized it's just a laugh in. Seems like old times though. Oops ..gotta go there my housesitter. I'll be an out of towner for a while. I'm taking off for a while in my town and coun... Hey, wait a minute.
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SeveredVesper
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Very nice post slug.
I agree that they aren't that detailed, but they reminded me that:
"Success requires pains in the arse"
Check out my band's song on YouTube!
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zungle
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Hi Slug, Nice post . It is right on the money I have a question for others though..................  Why is "RTFM" rude.............truthful and to the point.....yep. Rude....? Nah......... Rude is the OP who asks a question...(likely in the "manual") Then gets lots of good feedback and replies, yet does nothing with it..........they appear to either ignore the replies or unwilling to try. Then they do not post back or even worse they keep asking the SS over and over  Why is this rude......because in my family, my grandpa always emphasized that wasting other peoples time is "RUDE". I see nothing wrong with "RTFM" I used to try to reply with detailed help, if I felt I could really solve someones issues. I helped a lot of peeps with mixer routing, amp modeling, latency tests and drum maps etc. But between the lazy asses that wouldn't follow up and an the other dick weed members lying in wait to point out your "help" was wrong,blah,blah,blah........... I basically have said..........F*** It. "RTFM"...............and............" QYFC" I agree with daveny5,Papa,CJ and others................ If your gonna drop $1000.00-$5000.00 on a DAW............"RTFM"
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zungle
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I mean, have you ever seen a detailed reply by any of the guys you mention - CJ, Papa2004 or Daveny5? Steve I love ya dude....but really?...but come on.................  Those guys have provided detailed "help" and answers hundreds of times. Especially daveny5. Like him or not CJ's personal work is solid and if someone really wanted to help themselves as an artist, they should take a good listen to it. If you would have told me they are short,****y or arrogant(describing myself ) I'd a bought your line 100%
post edited by zungle - 2011/04/02 18:09:57
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bapu
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zungle
Like him or not CJ's personal work is solid and if someone really wanted to help themselves as an artist, they should take a good listen to his work.
But that is not (generally) the kind of help sought here. Some guys (myself early on) just could not understand the nuances of detailed things like compression use, audio snap for MIDI extraction, limiting, routing etc. Listening to CJs songs (or daveny5, if he would post something) were not going to help me with SONAR unless he would tell me what compressor he used on the kick on that one song. I asked that specific question of home once and I got the stock answer "What you use will depend on the song. It's different every time". James (Yoyo) recently posted a PDF of how he mixed a specific song. Now that was probably helpful to many a newcomer (if they visited the songs forum). Just sayin'
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zungle
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But that is not (generally) the kind of help sought here. Some guys (myself early on) just could not understand the nuances of detailed things like compression use, audio snap for MIDI extraction, limiting, routing etc. Listening to CJs songs (or daveny5, if he would post something) were not going to help me with SONAR unless he would tell me what compressor he used on the kick on that one song. I asked that specific question of home once and I got the stock answer "What you use will depend on the song. It's different every time". James (Yoyo) recently posted a PDF of how he mixed a specific song. Now that was probably helpful to many a newcomer (if they visited the songs forum). Well in in the CJ area......Didn't I say "help" as an artist?'' If another artists gains nothing from listening his work it is by their own choice. But serously, CJ has posted very specific details on is work..... Some specific to Sonar some not..........He has posted info on his choice of guitar modeling ,I believe he used to use a POD Pro and a Boss GS10 which he posted specific setting how he tracked,mixed the guitars etc.. He posted a ton of info on his drum tracking both audio and midi(he was triggering electric drums for a while). Etc,Etc. Did I say "listen" to daveny5? No............. But I will say....... daveny5 has posted " help " in detail in several specific areas...... To say he has not is simply inaccurate.......... I believe he was one of the first forum members to take the time to set up his own "Cakewalk "help page. And to my memory it says a lot more than...."RTFM"........ Oh and Jamesyoyo........ I have followed several of his posts,replies in the "songs" forum. He is not so different than the members mentioned here.... Just a wee bit more P.A......... Just sayin" Edited several times to curb rudeness...............
post edited by zungle - 2011/04/02 18:57:57
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Bub 
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Lot's of people are helpful on this forum other than the handful mentioned here without using the 'F' word to get their point across.
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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bapu
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zungle
But that is not (generally) the kind of help sought here. Some guys (myself early on) just could not understand the nuances of detailed things like compression use, audio snap for MIDI extraction, limiting, routing etc. Listening to CJs songs (or daveny5, if he would post something) were not going to help me with SONAR unless he would tell me what compressor he used on the kick on that one song. I asked that specific question of home once and I got the stock answer "What you use will depend on the song. It's different every time". James (Yoyo) recently posted a PDF of how he mixed a specific song. Now that was probably helpful to many a newcomer (if they visited the songs forum).
Well in in the CJ area......Didn't I say "help" as an artist?''
If another artists gains nothing from listening his work it is by their own choice.
But serously, CJ has posted very specific details on is work.....
Some specific to Sonar some not..........He has posted info on his choice of guitar modeling ,I believe he used to use a POD Pro and a Boss GS10 which he posted specific setting how he tracked,mixed the guitars etc.. He posted a ton of info on his drum tracking both audio and midi(he was triggering electric drums for a while). Etc,Etc.
Did I say "listen" to daveny5? No.............
But I will say.......
daveny5 has posted " help " in detail in several specific areas......
To say he has not is simply inaccurate..........
I believe he was one of the first forum members to take the time to set up his own "Cakewalk "help page.
And to my memory it says a lot more than...."RTFM"........
Oh and Jamesyoyo........
I have followed several of his posts,replies in the "songs" forum.
He is not so different than the members mentioned here....
Just a wee bit more P.A......... 
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bapu
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Bub
Lot's of people are helpful on this forum other than the handful mentioned here without using the 'F' word to get their point across.
Fahrenheit? Fridge? Fancy? Frequency?
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Bub
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"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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Kroneborge
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First
There's no 'EASY' button to make your entry-level project sound radio-ready.
WTF, I want my money back. It was supposed to be there with X1b. Second
Why is "RTFM" rude.............truthful and to the point.....yep.
Rude....? Nah.........
Rude is the OP who asks a question...(likely in the "manual")
Then gets lots of good feedback and replies, yet does nothing with it..........they appear to either ignore the replies or unwilling to try.
Then they do not post back or even worse they keep asking the SS over and over
Actually the are both rude. If I ask a question and you basically tell me STFU read the manual, YES that is rude. If I ask a question, you take the time to answer, then I blow you off, YES that is rude. Should someone try and figure things out on their own first. Yes IMO. But lets be honest the cakewalk manual is not the best in the world, and that problem has been amplified with X1. Agreed that in general if you don't want to provide the answer to the question, then just don't post. The only exception I would have to that is if other people have already provided the answer, and the poster just isn't getting it (and usually being rude in the process). Probably the easiest way to know if it's rude is ask your self this. If I told this to someone in person, is there a chance I might get punched in the face? If the answer is yes, I think we have our answer. On a side note, if the forum was just filled by a bunch of people that already knew everything, then why would people be here? To sit around and pat each other on the back? Anyway my two cents. (hope this doesn't get moved upstairs due to my funny reply)
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bapu
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Kroneborge
Probably the easiest way to know if it's CH appropriate is ask your self this. If I told this to Karyn or KatieDid^2 in person, is there a chance I might get slapped in the face?
Now, I can work with this...
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Kroneborge
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bapu
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Kroneborge
So, if Yes, then Yes?
Yes No Maybe ~Mike McCue
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RobertB
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Well, I reckon I should weigh in on this.
When I started out, I knew squat about any of this. I started with Sonar Home Studio 4. I could spell MIDI.
Had no real clue as to what it was. Yes, I read the help files, and at the time, they were very intriguing, but raised as many questions as they answered. So I dug in, pushed buttons to see what would happen, and trashed several projects.
DaveNY5, Zungle, Slugbaby, and a few others were around the HS forum at the time, and I recall working through some problems with all of them.
Dave had more patience back then, but his style was still short and direct. He's answered the same question thousands of times. And this is where it starts to get a little grey.
I have also gotten to the point at times where I am tired of seeing the same question over and over. It's frustrating, but this is where you step back and remind yourself that this is a new user.
Sometimes they have made no effort whatsoever.
Sometimes they tried, but something does not make sense to them.
Sometimes the choose to fly against all reason (re: the infamous Pistolpete episode)
In the first case, RTFM is an appropriate answer. At least try a little.
In the third case, I have learned not to even respond (most of the time, anyway).
The second, now this is where the time is well spent. This is why I spend so much time in the Music Creator, Guitar Tracks(not so much lately), and Home Studio forums.
Yes, I will "spoon feed" people, if they are showing some effort. And yes, i have been through some real time marathons, walking someone through a procedure until the lights come on. It's actually fun, challenging, and very rewarding.
I can't claim credit for the natural talent these people posess, but I am blessed and proud of the opportunity to help them get where they are.
At least it's a legacy, and one I can live with.
My Soundclick Page SONAR Professional, X3eStudio,W7 64bit, AMD Athlon IIx4 2.8Ghz, 4GB RAM, 64bit, AKAI EIE Pro, Nektar Impact LX61,Alesis DM6,Alesis ControlPad,Yamaha MG10/2,Alesis M1Mk2 monitors,Samson Servo300,assorted guitars,Lava Lamp Shimozu-Kushiari or Bob
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Bub
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There is no excuse imo to use the most offensive word in the English language just because someone asks a question.
Simple say, "Please check your manual before posting.", or "Here, I looked up the page in the manual for you, please check out page number xx." Or simply ignore the person, they'll have to read the manual then won't they?
There's no excuse at all imo to say RTFM. This place is here to help people after all ... (exception being the Coffee House.).
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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