Strange effect in TTS1 bass

I'm working on a midi project using GPO4 sounds which doesn't include electric bass.  So I put one instance of TTS1 in, auditioned the bass sound - which was exactly what I wanted.  But when I play it with my imported track (from Sibelius), it has a wobbly, shimmering sound to it.  I similarly loaded another instance of TTS1 for piano and it sounds fine.  I can't see anywhere any effects have been added, and I had added none in Sib., nor, as I say, are there any on the piano I'm using from TTS1.  I just want the bass to sound like it did when I auditioned it - as the piano does.

Thanks.

If this helps unravel the mystery any, I am using a piano in one instance of TTS1, and the bass in another.  If I play just the piano, it's fine.  If I play the bass and piano together, they're both wobbly (and as I said, the bass is wobbly by itself).

djayers1


If this helps unravel the mystery any, I am using a piano in one instance of TTS1, and the bass in another.  If I play just the piano, it's fine.  If I play the bass and piano together, they're both wobbly (and as I said, the bass is wobbly by itself).

This does sound like a problem I've dealt with, and it's possibly an issue with Aria, not necessarily with Sonar.  The same problem happens for me in Sonar 8, 8.5, and X1, and it always involves Aria.

As I mentioned before, it seems that the MIDI controller data on one MIDI channel somehow mistakenly gets applied to a different synth.  You're saying "wobbly"---I'm sure you mean vibrato.  That's MIDI controller 1, and it's the one of the controllers I've had in this cross-talk scenario I'm talking about.  I'll have CC1 data on one track, and it's picked up on another track.  CC64, sustain, is the other controller I've had this happen with.

Here's my work-around - You need to try it to see if it fixes what you're talking about:

In the PRV, one at a time, open the tracks being adversely.  Open the bass track.  Ask to have a controller pane for CC1.  Insert values of zero in the track, a lot of them.  This will keep re-setting the controller to being off.  Do the same in the piano track.  Play all the tracks together, and see if the vibrato/wobble stops.

Randy B.

what actually does the tts-1 do??..ive heard so many midi gurus speak so highly of it..ive read and read about it but i still dont know what it does?..sorry about throwing the thread in a tail spin..maybe a small explaination??

Randy,

I tried to "spread the blessing", but here you are, back for more punishment:)  Maybe it's called "vibrato", but it's slow and wobbly - like unstable.  After much searching, I finally figured out what a PRV is, and in Piano Roll View (Duh!), opened the bass trk, went up to Insert>Series of Controllers (is this even the right place?), and opened that - and that's where I got (even more) lost.  "Ask to have a controller pane for CC1 - I don't see where there's anyplace to "ask" for that, or insert any values.  By "lots of them", do you mean a series of several 0s (when I find where to enter them), or several controllers with an 0 in each?  Sorry to be so dense.

By the way, since GPO4 doesn't have a bass, I was proud of myself that I found another synth with the bass sound I wanted, inserted it, and played it!  But then this brought me right back to earth.  If there's some exotic problem that exists, I'll find it.

Dave

djayers1


Randy,

I tried to "spread the blessing", but here you are, back for more punishment:)  Maybe it's called "vibrato", but it's slow and wobbly - like unstable.  After much searching, I finally figured out what a PRV is, and in Piano Roll View (Duh!), opened the bass trk, went up to Insert>Series of Controllers (is this even the right place?), and opened that - and that's where I got (even more) lost.  "Ask to have a controller pane for CC1 - I don't see where there's anyplace to "ask" for that, or insert any values.  By "lots of them", do you mean a series of several 0s (when I find where to enter them), or several controllers with an 0 in each?  Sorry to be so dense.

By the way, since GPO4 doesn't have a bass, I was proud of myself that I found another synth with the bass sound I wanted, inserted it, and played it!  But then this brought me right back to earth.  If there's some exotic problem that exists, I'll find it.

Dave

Ah, Dave - Well as you can see, there really is so much you need to study, and there's a limit to how much we can paraphrase things from the manual for you.  Happily, the X1 PDF manual is very thorough - it has to be high on your reading list. 

The Piano Roll View is the very heart of MIDI production in Sonar.  It's where you do all your editing.  Under Edit>New Value Type, you ask for a controller pane to display Modulation, MIDI Controller 1.  You insert values of zero, with your cursor you enter an event at the bottom of that lane - and you insert as many of those needed to keep CC1 off.  And yes, I mean a series of zero values of that one controller--It's logical.  I'm talking about the control for vibrato--that one controller - you need to zero it out as work-around for this unfortunate MIDI cross-talk problem.

You're still describing vibrato, a slow vibrato.  I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure you're getting that bug where the CC data from one synth is being wrongly applied to another, and I think the bug is in Aria, not Sonar, but I can't be certain of that either.  A combination of how the two things interact perhaps.

Side note - of course there isn't a bass in GPO--that's an orchestral library with all the instruments of the traditional orchestra, plus several extras like piano and harp which aren't part of the traditional orchestra.  But if you want Garritan instruments in the realm of jazz and pop i.e. bass, sax, guitar etc--then you need to look into JABB (Jazz and Big Band), CoMB (Concert and Marching Band), and World-which has ethnic instruments from around the world.

So, back to the topic - there really is a limit to how much can be explained in these off-the-top-of-our-head posts in replies to questions.  The manual has to be gone over thoroughly.  I know that over 90% of what I figured out about using soft synths and Sonar came from my own study and experimentation.  Some good tips were gleaned from online forums like this one at Sonar, but the most useful info came only after I was up and running and had understood the basics from my own study.  Nobody can explain everything you need to know in these replies.

Randy B.

thanks randy, as are yours and then some.

Randy - The OP has since refined his definition of the problem as a slow wobble so it's also possible that instead of a ModWheel problem he either has a chorus effect on one of the instruments or, since they're from two different libraries, there's an issue of fine tuning between the two.

djayers1 - open the TTS-1 synth and look at your bass channel. One of the knobs at the top is for Chorus. Check to be sure that its value is set to 0. Does that fix anything?

If this is a matter of tuning - many sample libraries contain slightly, or not so slightly, out of tune samples which creates a more realistic sound - you have several choices.

First, if the entire instrument is consistently out of tune, add a Pitch Wheel event (in the same manner as Randy described above re: Mod Wheel) at the beginning of the track to compensate for this. The amount will depend on how large the difference is, but you'll have a scale of between 0 and 8192 both positive and negative. A value of 10, for instance, isn't going to make an audible difference.

Second, you can find the offending notes and correct for them whenever they appear in your music. This is very tedious, but can be effective.

Third - learn to live with it.

Randy,

I sense I've stretched you thin:)  Sorry.   That's why I said earlier that you could "bail out" at any time and I wouldn't be offended - you've already helped me so much.  And I still say that.   Let someone else carry the ball unless a topic really grabs you.  In spite of appearances and my self deprecating humor, I do read the book, but it always seems so incomplete and sketchy to me, and often assumes other knowledge - particularly computer wise, or just general logic of how these things work.   Somehow there's a disconnect in  the older generations (me).   Or, with so much to absorb, I did read it - it just didn't sink in.

I most always have done a search before I post a thread.  But as in this case, it seems apparent (as I suspected up front - having done such a straight forward process before with TTS1, and without a problem) by comments of some of the people who have responded to this - as well as your own diagnosis, that there is an exception - a problem, not covered or readily searched in the book.  As for recognizing the abbreviation - there are so many, along with so much other new info that hasn't really sunk in (that younger people seem to get more intuitively) that it just got past me.   "I know that over 90% of what I figured out about using soft synths and Sonar came from my own study and experimentation":  some people are just more gifted in electronics, and computers - my strength is arranging.   One gets overwhelmed with info - particularly a type of info that is so foreign to me, and with few areas of knowledge of this kind of thing to cross reference or relate the info to.

I could never do this by myself, but with a few boosts here and there, I'm making it - same way I did in Sibelius - which is now a great tool for me.   If I must thoroughly (at least more than I have) absorb the book before proceeding, I'd never get this.  But together with the book, and help like you and others have given, I know I'm light years ahead of where I'd be otherwise.  And the help need not be long paragraphs - often just pointing to where or in what category I can find the info. 

This is one area I think there is a lot of room for improvement:  a more detailed index or glossary would help.  Sometimes I can't even find any word anywhere relating to my question.  Or if they do list a topic, it doesn't include my point - even though its an obviously related point.  I found in Sib. that sometimes important issues that many were asking were not included in the book - which forced us to contact them.   Because of me not being as clear as I could, I'm afraid I caused you more work to write the paragraph on GPO - I did understand that, I was just exalting that I was able to add the missing bass sound from TTS1.

With your clarification on the controller, I'll head back to the "mines" and see what I can do.  In any case, THANKS for all your help, and if I ask too many questions, please just let them pass.

Appreciatively, Dave

Try this:

Click on the track in the track view so the clips in the track are highlighted. Then, select Edit/Select/By Filter..

In the dialog box that appears, click on "None" so nothing is ticked, then tick Control and enter "1" as both the minimum and maximum values and then click on OK. Now hit the DEL key - all the CC#1 events will be removed from the clips in the highlighted track.

Bingo, Gary, that worked.  I will eventually get the GPO jazz version as Randy suggested so I can work completely in GPO if I want - which as I begin to use these other synths maybe won't want to.  But with what I just learned, I think I can begin to mix and match anyway.  But with what Randy said about those controllers being for GPO, maybe the mix and match won't be that great either.  In any case, I don't want to get into buying new sounds until I get the "lay of the land" in this, and maybe I'll find out there are more good sounds here than I realize.  I really like the bass.

Thanks. 
Dave