tripped across a very interesting "Technique" last night

i typically bounce all my tracks to a stereo pair, when mixing down.

then, i can easily a/b that track (with SOLO) against the whole, bringing the overall volume down to match...

and also, i can experiment with master buss stuff, before i decide it's done.

then, i typically output a 24 bit file, and master in WAVELAB.



so, last night, i was working on a song for the new album.....
and it has no drums.


it's called "Twilight Rain", and i've posted it here in the songs forum before...




anyway, i'm actively working on this mix.


but had forgotten that i had already bounced it down to a stereo track, and when i brought it up last night, to continue working on the mix, it seemed that everything was way brighter than i remembered.....
deeper.....
louder...

my master buss was getting near -2db!
(i always mix so that PEAKS are -6db max, RMS is usually -12 to -15)




then i remembered "oh crap, already mixed this"..... and i had forgotten to mute the mixdown track


so it was blending in with my original mix.



so, it kinda sounded good, you know?!!

LOL

so i decided, ok, i want something different for this song anyway, because of the lack of drums or any percussion, it could stand to be........phatter.



so, i threw waves L1 across the mixed down track, took the fader all the way down, played my original mix, and brought that track back up, just barely.

wow.


i mean, i've played around with parallel compression for years, but typically only on drums.


this isn't exactly parallel compression, i don't know what you'd call it.


but it made the mix super phat, without crapping on anything.


it didn't even really raise the peaks levels but about .5db, the way i'm barely using the track.....

and i'm wondering--if this is a legitimate way of blending a 'psuedo-mastered' track, back in with the original mix, just to fill it out a bit?

now, this song will get mastering, as they all will.
the thing that concerns me is, will this mess with the mastering process?
as it is, the mix sounds great by itself, and i don't hear any pumping or artifacts from the limited track blended in.......


ideas?
similar experiences?
words of caution?
damn the torpedoes?

yep.
it's just barely there, blended in.
i think the fader might be sitting at about -36......

i do mix into a 2-buss compressor...
waves C1.

i have it set for 1.45:1 ratio, and just kissing a db or 2.

it's almost invisible, but pulls my sound together.

this COULD create a very slight delay, which could either help or hurt, i don't know.

I've done something similar. I had a big background vocal, a 6-part harmony. I bounced all 6 tracks down to one stereo track, with slightly exaggerated panning. Then I took the new bounce track and heavily compressed it, added reverb and chorus and EQ'd it with a LPF to take the very top end out. I then mixed that 6db under the main harmonies. The result was, to use your term, quite "phat".

Here's another neat variation: move the bounce version back so that it answers the original as an echo and pan it to one side. Works best on short phrases and single words.

The key factor in such techniques is to make sure the bounced version is different in some way from the original. Otherwise, it just makes everything louder without adding any additional interest.  One easy way to inject differences is using a delay plugin that has a randomizing or LFO modulator such as NastyDLA.

well, phase issues are my only real concern.


technically, i suppose the waveforms should be dead even, irregardless of the buss fx adding miniscule amounts of delay....

the original tracks, are being routed thru the master buss compressor.....
so, i guess the bounced track would end up going thru the buss compressor twice.


maybe, i should bounce the first time, with the master buss compressor turned off, so that the waveforms actually WILL line up....

then, do my final bounce, with the pre-mixed and limited pair blended in, thru the typical master buss compression scheme i always use, and then not worry about the waveforms not lining up perfectly................?!!!

phase issues are my only real concern.

If you don't notice any phase issues when listening, then don't worry about them. So as long as you're A/B-ing and you're hearing an improvement then go with it.

If you are worried about phase, just bounce down two versions of the track, flip the phase of one and nudge till they cancel out. Then you can separately process them knowing that they are lined up.

Even then, once you are done, you migth play with nudging it just a bit off of aligned. You never know what you'll find. It might be cool. If not, just undo and no bad.

followup:

last night, i erased the previously bounced track (that had been routed thru a C1 on the master buss, set very lightly)...

and bounced it again, with nothing on the master buss.

then, limited that bounced down track again, took it down to about -27db, and blended that with all the original tracks, routed thru the C1 on the 2-buss all together, and that tightened it up enough that i could hear the difference....

still sounds phat.

flip to mono, no real difference, except for that single point of reference for everything being mono...
which is not the way i'd want anybody to listen to this regardless!
LOL


so, i think maybe the routing thru the master buss compressor, added enough time to the bounced track, to throw it ever so slightly off.....


but i also found another interesting side effect:


now that the one bounced track has the limiter on it, it brings out specific things in the mix at different times, say a vocal here, a guitar line there, a bass riff.....
it basically throws the mix off in certain places where i had favored parts in the mix...

so i would have to go back to my automation, and tweak everything again, to get the same mix with the added limited track in the background for 'sweetness/phatness'


in other words, it changed EVERYTHING...... but only very slightly.

might be worth sticking with it and doing one last round of mixing to utilize it....

I've been following this thread for a couple of days.  Thought it was interesting.  I'm going to try it in the studio this weekend.  Thanks for keeping it interesting!