Data MIDI Real TIme Help?

Well.. You put a lot of pressure on me, pal. I really hope my answer won't be useless.. :)
 
I have never had the problems you describe with latency on the midi-data.  
Since you talk about wdm or asio drivers, is it the latency on software instruments you're talking about or do you have latency on the midi even if you record midi with an external synth module?
 
If you can make a list of the different instruments you're trying to record, the midi controllers and the sound cards you've tried I think it would be easier for us to give you a good answer.
 
It's hard to come up with good answers and solutions when not knowing the equipment you’re using.

HP 8gb RAM , Quad-Core ,64bit ,
midicontroler keyrig49 M-Audio USB
 
Interfaces :
 
Tascam - US800 usb
E-mu usb
and E-mu pci
M-audio M-box usb
 
the pronblem is not with the audio lactancy , the problem is with the midi lactancy , when i pres record and i record my midi notes the software do track the midi on time it seen to do randon even if put the asio in 2ms or in 100ms it is the same , clearly can hear the notes out of time when i pres play ,
 
what setting i should do for record the midi data with cero lactancy in midi comunication?
 
what i should buy i dont want to spend more money in products that dont work
 
this was what i did the last time , i mute all my vst in order to record jus the midi data and dont work
then i open a chanel jus for midi with out any vst ,  jus to map the midi and dont work
they tell me that usb is 5 time more faster than midi cables???? how is that?
i jus want to record my midi notes on time natural time , with out any quantize or robotic or randon etc
 
 
 
 
 

It sound really strange.. :/
Asio is the driver you should use, however. It's much better than the others.

Have you tried to record midi in any other software without getting this latency?
I'm trying to figure out if the problem is within sonar or if your gear acts the same in other sequencers as well. If it's not just in sonar, maybe it's a driver problem. You should look for the latest drivers for the audio cards and controllers.

If the problem's just in Sonar.. Well it's very strange..
So what you're saying is that if you start up a completely new and empty project and insert a new midi track (without any vst:s or effects what so ever) and then record midi data, you get latency?
I'm sorry if I'm asking things you've already explaind, but it just feels so strange.

Ok. So the problem isn't with Sonar then. It's something with your other gear.

To me the whole thing really feels like a driver problem.
But then it's strange that you've had the same problem with different gear..  :/

The latency you set for the asio shouldn’t affect the midi at all.

I just tested to record midi to a track. I just hit the key in time with the metronome and had the asio set to 6ms. All the notes were spot on. After this I changed the asio latency to 93ms and did the same. Once again, all the notes were spot on.. To do this all I used was my Cakewalk A-500Pro connected with a USB cable.

So, the problem isn’t with the asio settings. It’s something else.
Have you googled for this or asked around in forums of your other gear?

What audio interface are you using right now? Cuz you’re not using all of them at the same time right?

Try and google for the name of your audio interface and “midi latency” and see if you find anything.
Let us know what you find and we’ll continue from there.

One thing I'm sure of is that it's a software problem, not a hardware problem.
So buying a jupiter 80 won't solve anything..  :)

Well.. You both got M-audio gear and I know from experience that they're not the best when it comes to drivers.. :/ (in my opinion they're crap when it comes to this)
You should contact them and see what they say.


My guess is that it's m-audio combined with windows7 that's the problem.
I'm sure it has to do with the drivers to your gear rather than Sonar itself anyway :/

John


First off MIDI has miniscule latency. Not something anyone is going to notice. Also as far as what driver to use that is completely up to who made the driver. ASIO is often preferred but that assumes it is well written. My advice is try WDM and ASIO to see which performs better. If they perform the same which they should stick with WDM. Otherwise go with ASIO.

If you are using soft synths then you will need to lower the audio latency to hear the notes played at or very near the time they are accessed.

In playback latency is not all that important unless one needs to record in real time to the playback. Here is where latency is most important. It needs to be as low as your card will allow without drop outs or glitches.

Latency has nothing to do with the OS or the system but everything to do with the audio interface you are using and whether your driver model of choice is up to it..

The problem they have isn’t about latency of vst instruments.
It’s the midi-data itself that’s being a bastard.

As he wrote earlier he can start a new blank project, insert a midi-track with no soft instruments
what so ever and still get latency on the notes he’s recording.

So.. It has nothing to do with the latency settings, or with the audio at all for that matter. It's just about the midi.
Maybe it’s wrong to call it “midi latency”, since I think it has more to do with crappy drivers than with latency.

John


Maybe you are right but we have seen this sort of thing many times before and because USBMIDI is not communicating very well its not that easy to understand what he is asking. The post I made above still stands.

He says that the MIDI data is on time. Therefore it has to be the audio driver used causing the latency. MIDI for all practical purposes has no latency to speak of.

He corrects himself in the message after and writes:

UsbMIDI:

the pronblem is not with the audio lactancy , the problem is with the midi lactancy , when i pres record and i record my midi notes the software do  NOT track the midi on time it seen to do randon even if put the asio in 2ms or in 100ms it is the same , clearly can hear the notes out of time when i pres play

Since English obviously isn’t his first language it’s, as you say, not easy to understand exactly what he means. But I think the midi notes don’t record on time. And he keeps saying that the problem isn’t with audio latency. He also says that he created a track, just with midi and no vsti, and the midi still didn’t sync.

But then again.. English isn’t my first language either, so maybe I’ve got it all wrong.. :)


If it is the soft synths that have latency when he’s playing and not the midi notes, then I agree. It’s all about latency, WDM and ASIO.

But if it’s the midi notes that doesn’t stick to the track where he plays them, I’m thinking driver problem.

But if it’s the midi notes that doesn’t stick to the track where he plays them, I’m thinking driver problem.

 
The question is how does he know where he played them except by his "sense" of how well he synchronized with a metronome, which is audio. You can't get away from audio latency effects on MIDI timing except by recording the input of an external sequencer MIDI-synched to SONAR, or by rerecording an existing MIDI track and measuring the round-trip time, which should be on the order of 2-3ms for a good interface. 
 
One good way to get a sense of how accurately MIDI is being laid down is to dial in your audio latency compensation to the sample, and then record simultaneous audio and MIDI from a kyeboard synth generating both with Local Control On. The keyboard should be generating audio and MIDI with a timing precision on the order of a millisecond, and given that, the MIDI should sync to the recorded audio in SONAR within maybe ±2ms, which is about as good as you can hope to get.
 
The abilit of most musicians to play in time with a metronome is easily exceeded by the timing precision of MIDI, except possibly when dealing with very dense MIDI streams containing lots of controller messages and handfuls of simultaneous notes in big chords.
 
The OP is going to have to find a more precise way of quantifying the error, and explaining how he's getting the numbers before we can do anything to troubleshoot.
 
EDIT: Here's a link to a post from an earlier thread on the subject with screenshots of what I consider good MIDI-Audio timing sync in SONAR:
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/fb.ashx?m=2046447 

so you are telling me that when i track (record) the midi data it comes with 2ms of lactancy in the data , and lower ms that sonar can get is 2ms ( non real time becouse real times is 00ms ) is that what you telling me ?

so now i am more confuse what about the audio wave when you record a guitar also come with 2ms of lactancy in audio wave ? 

or is all trademark

so you are telling me that when i track (record) the midi data it comes with 2ms of lactancy in the data , and lower ms that sonar can get is 2ms ( non real time becouse real times is 00ms ) is that what you telling me ? so now i am more confuse what about the audio wave when you record a guitar also come with 2ms of lactancy in audio wave ?

 
Yes,  minimum latency from the time you hit a key on a MIDI controller to the time you hear the audio from a synth is on the order of 4ms, depending on how things are configured. And that assumes a very minimal audio buffer on the order of 32-64 samples.
 
But 4ms is nothing. It's like sitting another 4 feet from your monitors. Even your acoustic guitar played live has "latency" of 1-2ms between the strings and your ears. What's all the concern about a couple milliseconds here or there?.
 

You can't get away from audio latency effects on MIDI timing.....

Sorry brundlefly you are wrong about this. This is a Sonar thing. In Studio One midi timing has no relationship to the audio side of the program what so ever. It is rock solid no matter what is going on in the audio side of the program. Explain that! Logic is also the same. In Sonar for some reason the midi timing is linked to the audio side of the program. I have always felt it has never been all that perfect and it varies as well. I have done quite a bit of exhaustive testing in this area now and it is program related.

I use external hardware as well as internal VST's and this apart from the gapless audio engine is one of the main reasons I am using S1 now.

I am not referring to the OP problem either as his situation may not be program related but what I am referring to is how midi timing can be effected by audio. It is a separate thing in Studio One as it should be.

That is very interesting brundlefly. Actually I think it might have been bitflipper (not sure) who pointed to a link about midi interfaces and the types of ports they are connected and performance. I use a Unitor 8 interface and it is connected to the old serial port. In that article it mentioned that if you have current drivers, it is a very good place to have a midi interface connected. I do have drivers for it and it seems to perform well. But on my system Sonar is definately not as good as Studio One.

It is interesting that on your setup Studio One does not perform as well as say Sonar does. Also do you have to record the results of a midi timing test onto an audio track? Often I run my external hardware straight into a digital mixer and mix those sounds in with the main outs or stems from my DAW. I do see what you are saying now because if you convert midi to audio then audio latency must come into play. (Maybe I am getting good midi timing because I don't convert to audio often. I know I should though)

Because I often bring the external synths in direct to a mixer without going anywhere near the DAW then is my testing procedure valid I wonder. I have compared the audio metronome to midi clicks being generated by my external hardware and like I said before no matter what the audio side of the program is doing they are always really tight. (I use my ears here! Not even flamming here only very slight comb filtering which means the errors are down to 1 or 2 ms or even under 1 ms) I have also tried creating a midi metronome click and comparing that to external hardware also making a click sound and that too is always really tight. And they stay tight no matter what is going on in the audio side of the program. Studio One does not give you a mixer channel for external hardware and I prefer that. It is a waste of a mixer channel. They assume you have got your external hardware connected to some sort of external mixer which I do.

I am busy right now on a fairly long rush job but I promise to do the test you suggest and I will let you know what I find out. It is all very interesting though and it just goes to show how these things can drift or vary slightly without people knowing.

I would also like to add that I also still like Sonar a lot and I am using both programs now. (rather than just S1) Each for their own strengths. For me S1 is definately better midi timimg wise and also the gapless audio engine is great too. But more important than gapless is S1's ability to switch tracks while looping and still in record. Sonar cannot seem to do that. Unless it can and if so I would be interested to know how. I cannot seem to get it to work.

Also brundlefly I just remembered there has been an update to Studio One (1.6.4) and there has been an improvement in external midi timing. Not that I can hear it though. It still sounds the same to me but it might improve in your case.