can't sync audio

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marklchambers
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2011/04/10 10:08:04 (permalink)

can't sync audio

used to have a desktop setup with midi interfaces, etc, but don't now (long story not worth telling).  Here's what I'm running at the moment:  laptop 3 gb ram and sys 7, 64 bit.  sonar x1b essential.  no midi input.  no midi output except through soft synths.  currently, just messing with some of my old midi files as I learn x1.  with no midi time clock, if I try to record a vocal (with a cheap usb input mic), the first word is right on the beat and then starts to lose it.  Even without an audio track the midi playback sound (going through sound synths) is about a half measure behind.  when recording an audio track, the midi playback sound will be as many as 20 measures behind.  I realize I don't have an ideal set up, but it's all I can do right now.  That being said...is there any way to sync audio tracks on a laptop?  have tried it with internal clock and every other available button.  thanx in advance for yoru help.
#1

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    Loptec
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    Re:can't sync audio 2011/04/10 10:18:57 (permalink)

    first of all you should make sure the drivers are up to date for your internal audio card.
    start with this. i might be all you need to do..

    then check your audio settings in sonar if you can chose wdm/ks or asio as audio driver.


    do this first and then we'll take it from there :)
    post edited by Loptec - 2011/04/10 10:20:08

    SAMUEL LIDSTRÖM

    DAW: Sonar Platinum (64bit) with Melodyne Studio - Controllers: Roland VS-700C, Cakewalk A-500 Pro, Yamaha P90
    Desktop Audio Interface: RME HDSPe RayDAT - Laptop Audio Interface: RME Babyface Pro

    #2
    marklchambers
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    Re:can't sync audio 2011/04/10 10:27:26 (permalink)
    thanx, loptec, for taking a look at this problem.  audio drivers are up to date.  Just bought the laptop around Christmas...and has the latest driver for Conexant CX20671 Smartaudio HD.  audio settings on wdm/ks.
    #3
    Loptec
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    Re:can't sync audio 2011/04/10 10:33:24 (permalink)
    np. 
    hm.. read your message again. is the midi also falling behind?

    is the midi lined up to the bars and measures as it should in the project?
    or did you record your old midifiles without a metronome?

    SAMUEL LIDSTRÖM

    DAW: Sonar Platinum (64bit) with Melodyne Studio - Controllers: Roland VS-700C, Cakewalk A-500 Pro, Yamaha P90
    Desktop Audio Interface: RME HDSPe RayDAT - Laptop Audio Interface: RME Babyface Pro

    #4
    brundlefly
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    Re:can't sync audio 2011/04/10 10:39:19 (permalink)
    A few thoughts:
     
    First, realize that a USB mic actually has a builti-in audio interface with it's own indepedent sample clock.  So the first question is who's that timing master for playback and recording. It should probably be the soundcard, since the mic probably can't be a playback master, and you don't want to have timing masters from different clocks for playback and recording.
     
    Depending on what driver mode everything is using, the mic clock and soundcard clock might not be playng nice together. I assume you are using WDM or MME driver , or you wouldn't be able to see both the Mic input and soundcard output. If it's MME, you'll likely have very bad latency which will contribute to the problem.
     
    Also, if you are using the MIDI metronome, you're gettting the click from the GS wavetable in your soundcard which may have response latency on top of the base buffer latency, making you play/sing even later.
     
    It's hard to say exactly what the problem is, and whether it's fixable, but if you're having to use MME driver mode, I would guess you're fighting a losing battle. If you can use WDM, that may help, but you; might still have problems. Using a USB mic is asking for sync problems IMO, though I'm sure some have made them work reasonably well.
    post edited by brundlefly - 2011/04/10 10:40:47
    #5
    marklchambers
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    Re:can't sync audio 2011/04/10 10:41:27 (permalink)
    the old midi files were recorded from a keyboard input.  then, the output would go to a rack system which included a proteus 1 and an alesis synth, so I had a source for time code sync.   on the current laptop, when playing back midi tracks in a file which has no audio track, the playback sound is anywhere from a half measure to two measures behind. so, adding audio on this current system is even worse.  like i said, 20 or more measures behind.  maybe I'm not explaing very well, but when trying to record a vocal, I'm passing the marker for the second verse when the midi playback sound for the first verse comes along.  on playback, the audio starts off fine, but by the time you get to the second line of the lyric, it's already off time by about a half measure and then gets worse.
    #6
    marklchambers
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    Re:can't sync audio 2011/04/10 10:49:36 (permalink)
    thanks, brundlefly.  I'm not a fan of a midi mic, but that's all I can do on this laptop right now since I'm stuck with the factory installed soundcard.  you may be right, this may not work at all, but with a very fast processor, plenty of ram, etc., you would think that even on a laptop there would be better response than this.  I'm open to any suggestions for changing things in the preferences just to make it work.  I'm thinking, too, that Sonar X1 doesn't do too well on sys 7, regardless of the setup.  I have problems, for example, with Proteus VX because drivers are for XP.  Nevertheless, any suggestions you have are certainly welcome.  Anybody on this board has more expertise than I.
    #7
    marklchambers
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    Re:can't sync audio 2011/04/10 10:56:37 (permalink)
    I should probably also mention, although it probably has nothing to do with anything, that I have some old cakewalk bundles done on studio 9.  Unbundle them and the audio is in perfect sync.  it's only in trying to sync audio attempts on this new laptop that I have a problem. 
    #8
    brundlefly
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    Re:can't sync audio 2011/04/10 11:00:21 (permalink)
    X1 runs great under Win7. The problem with Proteus VX is the x64 environment, not the fact that it's WIn7. I believe Proteus VX runs fine on 32-bit Win7.
     
    In any case, before I can make any suggestions, I need to know where we are now. So go in to Audio Preferences, and tell me what the driver modes is, what the latency is, and what devices are the Tming Masters for playback and recording. And where are you getting the click from? Is it SONAR's audio metronome or MIDI driving the GS Wavetable synth (see metronome preferences).
     
    Also as a reference point, what kind of timing do you get recording your voice via the laptop's built-in mic? Is it better than with the USB mic?
    #9
    marklchambers
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    Re:can't sync audio 2011/04/10 11:26:46 (permalink)
    Driver Mode:  WDM/KS
    Audio Driver Bit Depth:  16
    Under Mixing Latency:  Buffers in Playback Queue = 2
    Slider moved all the way over to SAFE, which was recommended in something I read...with numbers of 349.2 msec and 15400 samples
    with usb mic plugged in, it is listed as the recording timing master.  there is not a device for playback timing master, nor is there a choice when clicking on the menu arrow.
    never tried the built-in mic.  assumed I needed a mic with a mini plug to use.  are you talking about a mic that perhaps is part of the built-in webcam?
    playback and record i/o buffer size set to 64 each, as suggested in help files.
    Under MMC, the transmit MMC box is NOT selected.  Should it be???
    Under SEND MIDI SYNC the Transmit MIDI Start/Continue/Stop/Clock box is NOT selected.
    Under SEND MIDI TIME CODE, the SEND MTC box is NOT selected.
    I operate under the assumption that I need a midi input or output device in order for these selections to be necessary.
    And, in case it flashes through your mind, I prefer to be thought of as a moron rather than an idiot.:)

    #10
    brundlefly
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    Re:can't sync audio 2011/04/10 11:48:46 (permalink)
    Slider moved all the way over to SAFE, which was recommended in something I read...with numbers of 349.2 msec and 15400 samples
     
    with usb mic plugged in, it is listed as the recording timing master. there is not a device for playback timing master, nor is there a choice when clicking on the menu arrow.

     
    These are the two big issues. As with many automobiles, the "Safe" and "Fast" are at opposite ends of the performance spectrum. If you want to eliminate the timing problem, you will want to set the latency as low as possible without encountring click, pops or distortion in the audio.
     
    The fact that there is no playback timing master is a big problem. Go to the Drivers tab of audio preferences, and make sure your soundcard outputs are shown there, and are checked. I'm not quite sure how you are managing to hear any ouput without SONAR being able to see a playback timing master. That may be another side effect of the USB Mic drivers.
     
    I think the best thing you could do is get a cheap analog dynamic mic to plug into the 1/8" jack on your soundcard, and take the USB mic out of the mix. 
    #11
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