Help needed - not sure how to mix this!

Hi,

I'm working on a new album - and have been for some time now.

I've probably got about 1/3 of the music recorded now but I'm dreading getting to the mixing and mastering stage even though that's a few months away because I think I'm going to be a little bit lost...

I've read in various places that when mixing and mastering an album you should have reference material from the same genre available so that you can check how your mix sounds compared to someone else's which has been professionally produced so.... if you listen to this track I'd sincerely appreciate it if you could tell me who you think this sounds similar to...! I'll check them out and use them as reference material for comparison!

The track is just a six minute excerpt... don't worry I'm not going to ask you to listen to 20 minutes worth of unmixed material... :D

http://snd.sc/gRX05n

Oh, almost forgot to say - any helpful comments from your own experience are also very very welcome.

Huge thanks in advance,
Terry.

Hi Terry, enjoyed that, nicely done. I felt the lead guitar got a little lost, some eq carving of the lower strings might help there.

Nearest artist I can suggest for comparison is;

Secret Garden

Hi,

Firstly, thanks to everyone that's listened so far.

@rockinrobby - thanks for the positive comment! Yes, the orchestral bits are EWQL Gold, with the solo violin coming from EWQL Gypsy (I find it more expressive). I agree about orchestration - I'm lucky in that I played clarinet in an orchestra for a couple of years when I was (much) younger so I've got some first-hand experience but it doesn't particularly help when it comes to putting a whole orchestra together.
Oh... and I love the quote from The Princess Bride, one of my favourite films of all time!

@jamesg123 - thanks for the positive comment and the link to Secret Garden, listening to them now and it's a lovely sound. I haven't done any "EQ carving" at all yet and after listening myself for a few times I'm planning to change the effects on the lead guitar sound that plays over the orchestra.

@Julian - thanks for listening and the positive comment on the composition itself. I'm peripherally aware of all the points you raise... and I haven't done any proper mixing or mastering yet - this isn't an excuse, more sort of an explanation - but you've immediately given me pointers to areas to sort out as I approach that phase. Oh, and at the loudest bits the master track was going into the red so I slapped a limiter on... I'm embarrassed about that so please don't tell anyone else ;-)

Cheers,
Terry.

This is great! The guitar lead is especially cool. I wish I could offer something of use, but I'm not too experienced. This reminds me of Explosions In the Sky, though. Maybe you should go check them out!

very cool stuff. i think the lead guitar would be ok without the rhythm guitars. for me they sound a little fuzzy, when you need smooth distortion (ie a more 'metal' sound). make sure you HPF the guitars, and double track and pan as wide as you like. This is very big widescreen cinematic stuff, congrats!

as for things similar to mix, i guess TSO, Vangelis...

Hi,

Thanks again to everyone that's listened... and for all the positive comments about the composition.

@SnyderTrigger - Thanks! I'll check out Explosions in the Sky when I get home from work

@Janet - thanks for the compliments on the music. I like that part at 3:26 too ;-) . And I'm glad it sounds like I know what I'm doing as I really don't (hence this request for a bit of advice)

@mgh - thanks for the compliments and the advice. And especially thanks for suggesting TSO as a possible reference source - they do manage to mix quiet, introspective music with loud bombastic orchestras, guitars, and drums!

@Guitarhacker - thanks! Really good advice about cleaning things up first before looking at the levels... in the past I would usually sort out levels first and then clean things up and invariably had to re-level things.

Cheers,
Terry.

Hi Terry, this is going to be some piece of work. I'm not qualified to give you any tips on mastering, but from a listeners point of view I can tell you that I found the sections with the full orchestra plus the "synth"(?) whizzing round (panning?) a bit to densely packed for my liking, probably sounds great on good speakers but on headphones it's a bit much. You might have a listen to the distorted lead guitar as it's breaking up , for instance at 5:12. Good luck with this project.

Greetings, Rik

Hi Terry

Had a few 'listens' to your piece. Some lovely chords, very nice and effective structure which gets those beautiful 'builds' - gets the hairs lifting on the back of the neck (you know what I mean).

Some points that I'd like to make (IMHO) are:

• Work on your arrangement/placement of main instruments - particularly those taking the melody. These are what lead the listener through the song and they seem to be a little immersed into the rhythm of the piece than confidently taking the 'lead'. I believe you will get a significant 'lift' to the piece with just these changes.
• There's no need to rush into mixing until you've got your instruments and overall arrangement sorted to your satisfaction.
• Love the oboe (or is it clarinet?) that starts the melody, very haunting theme. However, it seems to be competing with the piano rhythm for centre stage - and maybe losing out a bit.
• Similarly when the lead guitar takes over the melody - it's competing with the rhythm elements (drums/strings). As it climbs up the scale it should be 'screaming out' - making a hell of a statement.

Sorry to sound overly critical, not my intention at all. This song has very good potential and is a pleasure to listen to.

I have to say I love the mix of orchestra and elec. guitar, when done right it's a great effect.

As to your original question - who would I draw some comparison to... it takes me back to Rick Wakeman and his early days of King Arthur, Journey to the Centre of the Earth, Six Wives of Henry VIII. Also there's a hint of Tubular Bells from Mike Oldfield.

Pete

Hi,

Thanks for listening!

@jamesyoyo - that inconsistent mixing style annoys me too so I'll be sure to steer clear of it (if I can!) ;-)

@Rik/morenoise - thanks! I haven't particularly checked what's happening in the stereo field so thanks for the heads up. Thanks for the vote of confidence and the luck... I'll need it!

@Vicente - thank you! Two votes for space on the strings... ;-)

@Pete - thanks for the analysis, I really appreciate that you took the time to listen more than once and to respond so fully. I do need to put a bit of work into getting my guitar screaming - not just for this track but in general - because I'm not a very confident guitarist and it's really tempting to fall back on samples instead (although I'm adamant that I won't this time!). Thanks for the advice on space/arrangement/placing of instruments and the heads-up on what elements seem to be competing.
Thanks for suggesting that it sounds similar to Rick Wakeman and Mike Oldfield - although they're considered quite dated I'm a huge fan of both of them and I occasionally have to make the effort to not sound like a second-rate imitator!

@bapu - are you allowed out of The Coffee House? Thanks for risking the wrath of the fellow CH members! Thanks for the advice - luckily I've been doing a lot of relevant reading and I understand your cryptic code - you're talking about computer memory from the 80s, yes? ;-) Seriously though... thanks!

Phew - lots of good advice and helpful hints in addition to some great suggestions from people.

Thank you all!

Cheers,
Terry.

Excellent piece!  It builds very well.  You've got a great handle on orchestration.  The dynamics of the song is excellent.  There are only a couple things for me - 1) the electric guitar should be much louder and a bit brighter in tone.  Sometimes it is slightly ahead of the strings rhythmically.  Overal I like the sound and effects of the drums - for me the snare could use more reverb. 

Wow, I thought this thread had died a few weeks ago! However, I'm NOT complaining because more feedback is most welcome!

@GT - Thanks for the idea about the piano. I usually EQ my piano deliberately so that the lower notes are panned towards the left and the higher to the right. However in a full mix like this one it might be a good idea to limit their stereo width by pushing the whole sound to each side leaving some more space in the middle.

@guitartrek - Yup, I realise the guitar needs work on the timing and I'll try some more reverb on the snare and see how that sounds.

@evadianepug - Thanks Warren. Sometimes just knowing that someone enjoys listening can mean more than all the constructive criticism and help. Thanks!

To everyone that's listened so far a HUGE thank you.

I first started this thread almost 2 months ago and I still haven't gone through the mixing process. I said at the start that it was part of a larger piece of music and I've finally finished recording the full raw 32 minutes. What I'm going to do next is fix all the timing issues and then go back and try and do a consistent mix across the whole piece (which won't be easy as it's split over a few Sonar Projects).

Thanks again!

Cheers,
Terry.

The acknowledged master of MIDI orchestration is Thomas J. Bergersen.  I've compiled some of my favorite demos that he's done here: http://tinyurl.com/24g5ohz

Your piece is perhaps roughly similar to his Nemesis montage.

Enjoy...and weep!

J