Can anybody explain destructive and nondestructive editing to me?

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Ghoul
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2011/04/19 17:07:15 (permalink)

Can anybody explain destructive and nondestructive editing to me?

And why it pertains to me not being able to load a Native Instruments Guitar Rig plugin with Sonar x1, I have to set it as an FX patch after recording clean? There must be a way to set this up so I don't have to do this. 
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    bapu
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    Re:Can anybody explain destructive and nondestructive editing to me? 2011/04/19 17:27:20 (permalink)
    It's not that you have to set it an FX patch after you record.

    You can have the GR FX set while recording and use it by clicking the "Echo On" button for that track.

    FX's are non destructive by design so that you have the option of changing them later.

    Now if you want to absolutely save the track as it is with the FX (i.e. Guitar Rig), then after you record it, 

    1. Bounce the FX'd track to another track making sure GR is enabled
    2. Feeze the GR FX'd track and copy and paste the Frozen audio to another track (where you can further FX it if you like.

    In either option above, you can now either turn off the original FX (i.e. GR) mute the track and/or hide the track (in case you want to redo something later).

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    Ghoul
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    Re:Can anybody explain destructive and nondestructive editing to me? 2011/04/19 17:32:51 (permalink)
    Alright, so maybe there is something about this I don't understand.

    I was over my friends house yesterday, he has Sonar 8.5 -- I think thats the version -- and hes using the Line6 Guitar Port, we had FX on while recording in Sonar. This is all I want to achieve with Guitar Rig. 

    Why and how is he able to do that?
    #3
    bapu
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    Re:Can anybody explain destructive and nondestructive editing to me? 2011/04/19 17:38:43 (permalink)
    Because the Line 6 Guitar Port has the FX in it. That is quite a different animal than Guitar Rig. It's like putting a mic in front of an amp. Recording has been done that way for years. 

    Guitar Rig (and all of those types of FXs) are approaching it from the angle that you want versatility up to final mix. Not bad, not good. Just different. But not the same approach as the Line 6 Guitar Port (and similar products).

    HTH.

    #4
    FastBikerBoy
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    Re:Can anybody explain destructive and nondestructive editing to me? 2011/04/19 17:40:53 (permalink)
    By switching input echo on. You are then monitoring the effected sound but the recording will always be dry. If you leave the effect on the track though you will still here it on playback.

    As Bapu said to have the effected track 'permanent' you bounce to track. To temporarily free up resources freeze the track.

    The difference between 'destructive' is that once done it can't be changed. Non-destructive just means it is easily changed because it isn't permanent yet.

    Hope that makes sense.
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    Ghoul
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    Re:Can anybody explain destructive and nondestructive editing to me? 2011/04/19 17:43:52 (permalink)
    Input echo is on, theres a sort of clicking while I'm playing though, and the audio information thats being recorded isnt exactly the same as the preset in Guitar Rig 
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    FastBikerBoy
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    Re:Can anybody explain destructive and nondestructive editing to me? 2011/04/19 17:49:07 (permalink)
    The recording will never be the same as what you are hearing if you have an effect on the track. The recording will always be dry. The only way to record an effected guitar is to do the effect at source, such as miking up a cab or recording the output of an external effect.

    There's no need to record the effect though, you can always use bounce to track once you're happy with it.

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    Ghoul
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    Re:Can anybody explain destructive and nondestructive editing to me? 2011/04/19 17:50:46 (permalink)
    Is there a recording program that can handle having Guitar Rig 4 open, recording right onto a track?
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    John
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    Re:Can anybody explain destructive and nondestructive editing to me? 2011/04/19 17:53:10 (permalink)
    Nondestructive is when the underlying wave file is never touched. Destructive is where all edits change the underlying wave file.

    Sonar is the premier nondestructive DAW.

    Best
    John
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    FastBikerBoy
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    Re:Can anybody explain destructive and nondestructive editing to me? 2011/04/19 17:54:02 (permalink)
    Not sure, I think cubase can. You really don't need to though. If you are happy with what you've recorded, as soon as you've finished select "bounce to track". Takes a few seconds and the end result is exactly as if you had recorded it.
    #10
    Ghoul
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    Re:Can anybody explain destructive and nondestructive editing to me? 2011/04/19 17:55:53 (permalink)
    Yeah, but theres an entirely different dynamic in trying to play something when you're hearing it with an effect on and not clean. It kinda f's everything up to be honest. I know my friend who has ProTools had Guitar Rig 4 open and we were recording everything just fine... hmm...

    #11
    FastBikerBoy
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    Re:Can anybody explain destructive and nondestructive editing to me? 2011/04/19 18:01:34 (permalink)
    I don't understand what you mean. What you hear will be the effected sound if set up correctly. The recording will be dry but as soon as you bounce to track it will 'record' what you've just played with effect. To all intents and purposes it's identical

    Are you using 'input echo'? There should be no difference if you are.
    #12
    John
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    Re:Can anybody explain destructive and nondestructive editing to me? 2011/04/19 18:02:56 (permalink)
    Both PT and Cubase are destructive DAWs. They have some nondestructive abilities but neither are as nondestructive as Sonar. If you want destructive you picked the wrong DAW.

    Best
    John
    #13
    Karyn
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    Re:Can anybody explain destructive and nondestructive editing to me? 2011/04/19 18:04:47 (permalink)
    Ghoul


    Is there a recording program that can handle having Guitar Rig 4 open, recording right onto a track?

    You're missing the point, you don't want to record the effected sound.
     
    With a real amp you shove a mic infront of it and record the sound. If you decide later that there is to much distortion, or to little gain, or it just sounds crap then all you can do is setup again and record it again.
     
    Using GuitarRig  your guitar goes direct to disk while you monitor the sound through the effect, so it still sounds like you're playing through an amp.  If you later decide you don't like the sound, etc, then you simply play with the amp settings as if you were still playing live.
    When you're totally happy you're not going to change it any more you can bouce the sound to a fresh track if you want.
     
     
    If you're hearing clicks or other noises while you're playing then your computer needs tweeking.  See others threads regarding optimum settings.

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    bapu
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    Re:Can anybody explain destructive and nondestructive editing to me? 2011/04/19 18:05:29 (permalink)
    Ghoul


    1. Input echo is on, theres a sort of clicking while I'm playing though, 

    2. and the audio information thats being recorded isnt exactly the same as the preset in Guitar Rig 

    You have two different statements there and they are mutually exclusive.


    1. You probably have either the metronome on(?) or you have your interface buffers/latency too low or too high causein pops/crackles. You'll need to adjust your buffers/latency if it's not the metronome.
    2. again, that's because of the non-destructive nature of SONAR. Just leave Guitar Rig turned on during playback


    #15
    bapu
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    Re:Can anybody explain destructive and nondestructive editing to me? 2011/04/19 18:07:21 (permalink)
    John


    Both PT and Cubase are destructive DAWs. They have some nondestructive abilities but neither are as nondestructive as Sonar. If you want destructive you picked the wrong DAW.

    John un-converts SONAH users one at a time
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    windsurfer25x
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    Re:Can anybody explain destructive and nondestructive editing to me? 2011/04/19 21:19:54 (permalink)
    The crackling might be because your computer can't handle the load with the latency turned down low


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    chuckebaby
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    Re:Can anybody explain destructive and nondestructive editing to me? 2011/04/20 02:06:45 (permalink)
    bapu


    John


    Both PT and Cubase are destructive DAWs. They have some nondestructive abilities but neither are as nondestructive as Sonar. If you want destructive you picked the wrong DAW.

    John un-converts SONAH users one at a time


    this was marked as helpful    lol    :)

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    Kalle Rantaaho
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    Re:Can anybody explain destructive and nondestructive editing to me? 2011/04/20 03:32:06 (permalink)
    Ghoul


    Yeah, but theres an entirely different dynamic in trying to play something when you're hearing it with an effect on and not clean. It kinda f's everything up to be honest. I know my friend who has ProTools had Guitar Rig 4 open and we were recording everything just fine... hmm...

    Time to read the manual and do the tutorials, Ghoul, :o)
    You haven't got the slightest idea of how VSTs and soft synths work and you start making things complicated. 
     
    You DO hear the sound with all the FX when you have the Input Echo on. And like others have said, it's an advantage to be able to do everything in a non-destructive way. It means, if you don't like the guitar sound, you can simply change it, you don't need to re-record.

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