Zilch
Max Output Level: -89 dBFS
- Total Posts : 57
- Joined: 2008/08/10 07:34:27
- Status: offline
Fit to Improv - remove initial bar tempo
I posted on this a while back, as with Sonar 8.5 I had a pretty average time trying to match Sonar's tempo map with a freely recorded (no click track) piano/vocal recording. It turns out that, thanks to Eli's awesome Tips&Tricks video over at Groove3, in this case it was much easier to use the Shift-N hot key to mark the first beat of each bar. The key here as he explains is to use the tab key to go to the beginning of each MIDI note. This works for me as I have a MIDI piano part, and the bass is generally changing on the first of each bar. The one problem I am left with though - and is driving me nuts (although I'm fairly sure there will be an obvious solution to) is since I pulled the first MIDI note to the first beat of bar 2, from then on the song is approx 73BPM (varying). The issue is that bar 1 is still the default 107BPM that I had the project set to when I recorded. This sounds weird especially with the metronome on - you get a super quick count in, then it slows down to the normal speed of the project. If I change the overall project tempo (which I thought would just change the start tempo, it scales part of the project weirdly and I get my MIDI and audio out of sync. Locking the clips in various combinations didn't seem to help this. I tried deleting the bar (so I could add one back in at the slower tempo) but that didn't work either. Any suggestions appreciated!
|
rbowser
Max Output Level: -10 dBFS
- Total Posts : 6518
- Joined: 2005/07/31 14:32:34
- Status: offline
Re:Fit to Improv - remove initial bar tempo
2011/04/24 11:55:43
(permalink)
Hello again, Zilch
Try working on the first few bars, discovering the approximate average tempo, 73BPM in this case, then use the Tempo dialogue to change the first Tempo entry to that value. Then start again, mapping out your measures. That first measure will then have a count in which is reasonable to work with.
I find it easiest, clearest, to do such things in the Tempo View itself. Use the tool there to change that first measure - you'll see it lining up with the rest of the slightly varying tempo line you'll be getting for the whole song.
Randy B.
Sonar X3e Studio Roland A-800 MIDI keyboard controller Alesis i|O2 interface Gigabyte Technology-AMD Phenom II @ 3 GHz 8 Gb RAM 6 Core Windows 7 Home Premium x64 with dual monitors
|
brundlefly
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 14250
- Joined: 2007/09/14 14:57:59
- Location: Manitou Spgs, Colorado
- Status: offline
Re:Fit to Improv - remove initial bar tempo
2011/04/24 12:41:13
(permalink)
If the first MIDI event does not start at 1:01:000, you'll need to start (before doing anything else) by sliding the clip to align the first MIDI event (or audio transient if working with audio) with the beat it should fall on, then Use Shift-N (Ctrl-M in 8.5-speak) to "pin" that first beat. Then, after setting the rest of the project you can set the initial tempo to match the first snapped measure, or to a guestimate of the average tempo.
If you start by snapping the first and last event in the project, that will give you the average tempo to start, and make it easier to smap intermediate points because they should already be close to their targets if the tempo was relatively steady. The downside is that you may have to count the entire project out while listening to it to know what that last measure/beat is.
|
Zilch
Max Output Level: -89 dBFS
- Total Posts : 57
- Joined: 2008/08/10 07:34:27
- Status: offline
Re:Fit to Improv - remove initial bar tempo
2011/04/25 12:26:20
(permalink)
Thanks guys.
I was kinda hoping for a solution that didn't require me to start from scratch I had to admit. But even if I do, I think I'm still going to have issues.
I'm not exactly sure why this is, but for some reason, changing the initial project time screws up the audio track. It doesn't just get out of sync with the MIDI track, but it gets out of sync with the volume automation I have drawn on the clip.
Locking both the position and data of the clip don't seem to have any affect.
Both suggestions above involve me changing the initial project time yeah?
On a totally unrelated note, I can't even work out how to join two clips in an audio track. MIDI notes seem to have a paste tool, but I can't find anything similar for audio (which is weird since X1 touts similar workflows across different data types). Again, maybe I'm missing something obvious, but the Help file seems to imply you need to bounce them down to a single track. :(
|
brundlefly
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 14250
- Joined: 2007/09/14 14:57:59
- Location: Manitou Spgs, Colorado
- Status: offline
Re:Fit to Improv - remove initial bar tempo
2011/04/25 12:41:35
(permalink)
When you're talking about changing the "initial project time", you mean changing the start time of clips by sliding them? There's a check box in the the Select menu to "Select track envelopes with clips". It works most of the time, but I have occasionally had problems getting track automation to stay with clips, depending on how I moved the clip - dragging with the Move tool seems the most consistent. Dragging with Smart Tool seems less so, and nudging and manually editing start times might be problematic.
Both MIDI and Audio clips are joined by using Clips > Bounce to Clips command in the Track View menu. I have a keybinding for it, but don't recall the default binding in X1.
|
Zilch
Max Output Level: -89 dBFS
- Total Posts : 57
- Joined: 2008/08/10 07:34:27
- Status: offline
Re:Fit to Improv - remove initial bar tempo
2011/04/25 12:57:12
(permalink)
No, sorry, not dragging clips. I'm happy where they are. Just changing the initial project time - either via the control bar or drawing the first bar in the tempo view - moves the (first) clip for some real reason (but not the automation). Selecting "Revert to Original Timestamp" doesn't seem to do anything.
It's possible the MIDI and automation are moving, and the audio clip is staying still...it's hard to tell.
|
rbowser
Max Output Level: -10 dBFS
- Total Posts : 6518
- Joined: 2005/07/31 14:32:34
- Status: offline
Re:Fit to Improv - remove initial bar tempo
2011/04/25 13:05:37
(permalink)
--Our posts haven't been talking about changing "the initial project time." We've been talking about changing the initial project tempo so you don't have that thing of the first bar speeding by at a totally different tempo than when the tracks start.
RB
Sonar X3e Studio Roland A-800 MIDI keyboard controller Alesis i|O2 interface Gigabyte Technology-AMD Phenom II @ 3 GHz 8 Gb RAM 6 Core Windows 7 Home Premium x64 with dual monitors
|
brundlefly
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 14250
- Joined: 2007/09/14 14:57:59
- Location: Manitou Spgs, Colorado
- Status: offline
Re:Fit to Improv - remove initial bar tempo
2011/04/25 16:03:57
(permalink)
Zilch
No, sorry, not dragging clips. I'm happy where they are. Just changing the initial project time - either via the control bar or drawing the first bar in the tempo view - moves the (first) clip for some real reason (but not the automation). Selecting "Revert to Original Timestamp" doesn't seem to do anything.
It's possible the MIDI and automation are moving, and the audio clip is staying still...it's hard to tell. That's why why you have to set that first measure/beat value even if it's already where you want it. If it's not at 1:01:000, audio clip start times will move when you change the initial tempo. If you have a lot of audio clips starting later in the project, Set Measure/Beat At Now will not bother them, but manually changing tempos will foul up their start times because they are absolute. If you need to change tempos manually, you need to change audio clips to musical time for their start times to stay put. Suffice it to say that manually changing tempos can get complicated in a project that has a lot of MIDI and Audio in it already. EDIT: I mis-spoke above. The start time of Audio clips, like MIDI clips, is locked to Musical time by default. See post #12 for clarification.
post edited by brundlefly - 2011/04/26 11:14:29
|
Zilch
Max Output Level: -89 dBFS
- Total Posts : 57
- Joined: 2008/08/10 07:34:27
- Status: offline
Re:Fit to Improv - remove initial bar tempo
2011/04/25 21:47:25
(permalink)
rbowser
--Our posts haven't been talking about changing "the initial project time." We've been talking about changing the initial project tempo so you don't have that thing of the first bar speeding by at a totally different tempo than when the tracks start.
RB
Yes sorry. Initial project tempo. (I shouldn't post after 3am). Either way, I don't want the midi or audio clips (w/automation) to move in the timeline. I only want to change the tempo of the initial bar. (Wouldn't have thought it would be particularly hard)
|
Zilch
Max Output Level: -89 dBFS
- Total Posts : 57
- Joined: 2008/08/10 07:34:27
- Status: offline
Re:Fit to Improv - remove initial bar tempo
2011/04/25 21:53:25
(permalink)
brundlefly
That's why why you have to set that first measure/beat value even if it's already where you want it. If it's not at 1:01:000, audio clip start times will move when you change the initial tempo. If you have a lot of audio clips starting later in the project, Set Measure/Beat At Now will not bother them, but manually changing tempos will foul up their start times because they are absolute. If you need to change tempos manually, you need to change audio clips to musical time for their start times to stay put. Suffice it to say that manually changing tempos can get complicated in a project that has a lot of MIDI and Audio in it already.
That's weird though. I changed the other 47 bars of the 48 bar project without anything getting out of sync (using Shift-N, which is what this effectively does). Let me have a play with setting them to Musical Time, as I haven't looked at that. (Hmm...actually, if it's just the first clip that is affected, I might be able to create a mini-clip at the start)
|
Zilch
Max Output Level: -89 dBFS
- Total Posts : 57
- Joined: 2008/08/10 07:34:27
- Status: offline
Re:Fit to Improv - remove initial bar tempo
2011/04/25 22:36:32
(permalink)
Ok that worked. Split the audio clip at the end of bar 1, then it moves when you fix the tempo (but this doesn't matter since it was a bar of 'silence' with the volume down at zero anyway)
I'm going to class this more as a workaround than a fix, as I can't see why X1 doesn't have a way to change the tempo of a bar and keep the first audio clip locked with the rest of the project.
Thanks for the help guys.
|
brundlefly
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 14250
- Joined: 2007/09/14 14:57:59
- Location: Manitou Spgs, Colorado
- Status: offline
Re:Fit to Improv - remove initial bar tempo
2011/04/26 11:12:41
(permalink)
☄ Helpful
That's weird though. I changed the other 47 bars of the 48 bar project without anything getting out of sync (using Shift-N, which is what this effectively does). Set Measure/Beat At Now is specifically designed to alter timeline tempos around existing material without altering how that material plays back in real time. Manually editing an existing tempo entry does not preserve playback in this way; it changes the absolute time that a segment will run, which means both audio an MIDI clips will start later or earlier in real time because their start times are locked to musical (M:B:T) time by default ( I mis-stated earlier that audio needed to be changed to Musical time - it needs to be changed to absolute time to have the timeline move around it when you edit a tempo). I've pointed out before that one thing that makes all this a little confusing is that Musical (M:B:T) time is the fixed visual reference in SONAR, rather than absolute time. This means that when you change a tempo, the M:B:T timeline is unaffected, visually, while audio clips change length/position and the Now time cursor travels faster or slower as though absolute time were malleable. I think Cakewalk could clear up a lot of confusion by changing the model so that absolute time is the fixed reference, and measures in the timeline get longer or shorter with changing tempo.
|